72 days ich back?

[julie180]

This is extremely frustrating. I tore apart my 220 and did ttm and 72 days fallow with existing fish, got 3 new fish at the same time and did ttm and qt in separate tank.

Every one has been back in the dt for 2 months. My copperbanded has been showing signs for about a month, but no symptoms, so I was hopeful. WRONG, ich is showing its ugly head on others.

I am positive the fish were ich free when they went back in and I have added nothing to the tank.

What suggestions, if any do folks have? Experience? I am not in a position to do TTM and QT for a month or so because of work.

 

[snorvich]

Pictures? Why do you think it is ich?

 

[Perth_reefer]

This is why I'm not convinced about this 72 day period. A test has been done and in that test the longest lifespan was 72 days. There are many different strains of ich and most likely trillions of ich parasites in the aquarium trade worldwide. I just don't think we can take 72 days as gospel.
I think luck has a part to play too, personally I use copper, I know people say it stresses fish but it has been proven time and time again to be effective against ich (if dosed correctly).
I do feel for you, I've just been through a 10 week fallow period myself, it's a tough call what to do next....personally I'd try to remove the fish again and treat with copper, I'm not saying TTM and hypo don't work, just that copper is my preferred option. Maybe then after a month in quarantine I'd add one fish back into the display tank and monitor for a couple of weeks to see if it becomes infected.
If removing the fish and quarantining isn't an option, I guess all you can do is try and keep them eating to keep their strength up and hope for the best.

 

[snorvich]

In order to understand why the OP had a problem, I would need a detailed timeline of all items that were added to the tank that were wet. I would also need to know the details of how tank transfer was executed.

 

[Deinonych]

This is why I'm not convinced about this 72 day period. A test has been done and in that test the longest lifespan was 72 days. There are many different strains of ich and most likely trillions of ich parasites in the aquarium trade worldwide. I just don't think we can take 72 days as gospel.
I think luck has a part to play too, personally I use copper, I know people say it stresses fish but it has been proven time and time again to be effective against ich (if dosed correctly).
I do feel for you, I've just been through a 10 week fallow period myself, it's a tough call what to do next....personally I'd try to remove the fish again and treat with copper, I'm not saying TTM and hypo don't work, just that copper is my preferred option. Maybe then after a month in quarantine I'd add one fish back into the display tank and monitor for a couple of weeks to see if it becomes infected.
If removing the fish and quarantining isn't an option, I guess all you can do is try and keep them eating to keep their strength up and hope for the best.

Copper only affects the infective free-swimming stage, so it too can be ineffective if a particular strain excysts after the treatment period.

Like Steve says, it's important to understand the timeline as well as the details on how TTM was performed.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Copper only affects the infective free-swimming stage, so it too can be ineffective if a particular strain excysts after the treatment period.

Like Steve says, it's important to understand the timeline as well as the details on how TTM was performed.

This is true, there was a poster in another thread repeatedly asking why we don't dose copper for 72 days. A very valid question, but he couldn't get an answer from anybody.
This just goes back to us not knowing enough about the life cycle of ich to ever be 100% sure of anything. TTM is never going to be 100%, copper treatment never 100%, hypo never 100% and the 72 day fallow period again is never going to be 100% certain. All we can do is buy from a trusted lfs, choose our favoured method of quarantine, follow the instructions and keep our fingers crossed!

 

[julie180]

Pictures? Why do you think it is ich?

Ich is obvious. Same sypmtons as the first round and there has been NOTHING added to the tank since the fish were reintroduced on Easter.

I don't believe my ttm failed, I believe the parasite survived the fallow period.

What I am wondering is has this happened to others? If I do decide to ttm and fallow again, does it need to be for longer, or do I just have a strain that is going to persist?

Currently, besides some spots on the fins of a few and flashing, fish are eating and acting fine.

I know there is no easy answer, I am just looking for options, experience and wanting to vent because I am not a happy camper over this. I don't want my fish to suffer needlessly because of my stupidity!

TTM and QT for everything, lesson learned.

 

[snorvich]

This is true, there was a poster in another thread repeatedly asking why we don't dose copper for 72 days. A very valid question, but he couldn't get an answer from anybody.
This just goes back to us not knowing enough about the life cycle of ich to ever be 100% sure of anything. TTM is never going to be 100%, copper treatment never 100%, hypo never 100% and the 72 day fallow period again is never going to be 100% certain. All we can do is buy from a trusted lfs, choose our favoured method of quarantine, follow the instructions and keep our fingers crossed!

Your choice. Actually any method that depends on killing the infective stage of the life cycle (copper, hypo, CP) is going to depend on whether the infective stage is released while the treatment is in effect. The only method that eliminates ich is TTM because it works on the front end of the life cycle which is highly deterministic.

 

[Perth_reefer]

So you can 100% guarantee that TTM kills all parasites? I'm asking a genuine question there, not trying to be funny. The only reason being that there is so many threads going around saying that 72 days fallow will 100% guarantee your DT to be ich free, however that would not seem to be the case.
I just don't think in this hobby we can ever be 100% sure about anything where ich is involved.

 

[snorvich]

So you can 100% guarantee that TTM kills all parasites? I'm asking a genuine question there, not trying to be funny. The only reason being that there is so many threads going around saying that 72 days fallow will 100% guarantee your DT to be ich free, however that would not seem to be the case.
I just don't think in this hobby we can ever be 100% sure about anything where ich is involved.

Yes, I can guarantee that TTM, if done properly eliminates ich. The other methods, if done properly may kill ich. The verbs are radically different.

 

[Paul B]

My guaranteed, absolutely, perfect, 100% sure fire way to eliminate ich is as follows.
Copper with formalin and quinicrine hydrocloride. Then if you want to be 200% sure this will work, and work in a week you add a diatom filter.
I often get severely infected fish from a store or wholesaler for free because they know will die shortly. I treat them like this and in a day or so, there is no more "visable" parasites. A few more days and they are good to go. I have done this dozens of times over many years and still do. But I realize I am in the vast minority in my thinking so good luck and I hope your fish get over this annoyance soon. :wavehand:

 

[julie180]

Its not treating the fish to kill ich that I have a problem with. I am a believer in TTM, its getting it out of the tank thats is proving to be a problem.

I am 100% confident that the ttm method that I did with all fish, both new and existing, was affective. They did not become infected in the hospital tank for the other 60 days, it happened after going back into the DT.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Its not treating the fish to kill ich that I have a problem with. I am a believer in TTM, its getting it out of the tank thats is proving to be a problem.

I am 100% confident that the ttm method that I did with all fish, both new and existing, was affective. They did not become infected in the hospital tank for the other 60 days, it happened after going back into the DT.

I'm not sure what the answer is here Julie. In every ich thread you read on here someone will pop up with the 'you have to go fallow for 72 days' line. Then people spend almost 11 weeks with a fallow tank and it hasn't cleared. But whats the alternative? Without any sign of more accurate data all you can do is go fallow again for whatever timescale you think is appropriate. I would then just add one fish and monitor. I can't really think of any other methods to be honest.

 

[Perth_reefer]

My guaranteed, absolutely, perfect, 100% sure fire way to eliminate ich is as follows.
Copper with formalin and quinicrine hydrocloride. Then if you want to be 200% sure this will work, and work in a week you add a diatom filter.
I often get severely infected fish from a store or wholesaler for free because they know will die shortly. I treat them like this and in a day or so, there is no more "visable" parasites. A few more days and they are good to go. I have done this dozens of times over many years and still do. But I realize I am in the vast minority in my thinking so good luck and I hope your fish get over this annoyance soon. :wavehand:

I've always had 100% success with copper treatment apart from with a flame angel which was so infected I'm surprised it even survived being netted and moved to quarantine. Have you treated any angelfish this way? I'm very comfortable using copper during quarantine, however I have always missed this step if angelfish are involved.
Having said that my LFS dose copper in their sale tanks and have had some beautiful dwarf angels in recently which seemed fine, although obviously I'm not sure of the long term effects of the exposure.

 

[cmcoker]

Its not treating the fish to kill ich that I have a problem with. I am a believer in TTM, its getting it out of the tank thats is proving to be a problem.

I am 100% confident that the ttm method that I did with all fish, both new and existing, was affective. They did not become infected in the hospital tank for the other 60 days, it happened after going back into the DT.

Just wondering how far away your TTM and qt tanks were from the DT?

 

[Paul B]

Have you treated any angelfish this way?

I have treated everything with copper. Your LFS buys fish in copper and the wholesaler also probably shipped fish in copper. and if it was not for copper, there would not be a salt water hobby.
When I used to have parasite problems long before reef tanks I always treated fish in copper before I put them in my tank. In those days we used to keep copper in our tanks continuously. People say it is a poison and it certainly is because we want to kill the parasites, not make friends and go out to lunch with them. Every medication that works is a poison including aspirin, Viagra (not that I have any experience with that) Pepto Bismol, Tylenol and every prescription drug you may have in your house. The dosage is what keeps it from killing us. :smokin:

 

[nuxx]

I'm sorry that must be hard to deal with after 72 days and the work you put in.

I did hypo on our display when I thought we might have ich (didn't) and decided since there wasn't coral in the system, it would be easy to just run hypo.

Well it took 1 month to lower the salinity (600+ gallons of system volume) and another month to raise it. Not to mention the time spent in hypo. I would have cried if what I thought was ich came back...

(Hey at least it nuked the one aiptasia I spotted before hypo )

 

[Andrew S.]

Following this thread friends. Tore apart my 175 over four hours to go fallow two days ago. If it comes back after 72 days I won't be pleased either. Best of luck.

 

[tassod]

Been there, done that....this is my 2nd time around now going on 5 weeks fallow now...certainly wont be pleased if this happens on a 3rd time.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Been there, done that....this is my 2nd time around now going on 5 weeks fallow now...certainly wont be pleased if this happens on a 3rd time.

You went 72 days fallow first time Tasso?