--75g Barebottom/Starboard Reef Project--

[Travis]

IMHO, the most overrated fish disease in the hobby. I haven't had a fish with it in a few years now but I have battled it a few times in my days. I believe that any healthy fish can kick the ich on its own. It may get the spots but it will be able to fight it off. Now it sounds like your fish is not eating and probably stressed because it isn't coming out so, unfortunately, if it does have ich, the current prognosis is poor. I'm not sure what your best bet would be at this point. The fish is already not eating so I'm not sure it would do any good to treat it in a quarantine tank "if" you could even catch it. Putting it in a 20 gallon quarantine is just going to stress it out more than it already is. But if you do treat it, from what I've read, hypo is the best for ich.

I am a firm believer that ich, along with several other diseases, will always be in your tank no matter what you do. But if the fish are healthy and not overly stressed, they will be ok. The only concern is new additions that recently went through the stresses of shipping and being introduced to a little glass box and new "housemates".

 

[webpolk]

In my experience I would have to agree with Travis. I have successfully brought a Kole tang out of ick, only to kill it three weeks later from a massive temperature change( I own a Ranco now).

Mine was not eating any noticeable amounts of food. Then I tried the "Brown" seaweed pack. I can't remember what it is called, they have three different ones. He started eating this, so I would soak it in garlic for 5 minutes first, then clip it up for him.

I am not 100% sure if this did it, but he was fine within a couple days. no more ick, swimming around the tank and playing tag with the other fish. He wasn't very nice, but that is another thread all together.

HTH,
Steve

 

[arconom]

Let nature take it course Basically.

 

[JCDelbeek]

Interesting plumbing design ... just curious why you did not put any unions in the system? How will you clean the pipes or disassemble the plumbing from the tank if you need to move it? I didn't read all 17 pages of messages so maybe its too late already, but I would add some in just before the bulkhead returns.

Aloha!
JCD

 

[NexDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6226070#post6226070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis
I am a firm believer that ich, along with several other diseases, will always be in your tank no matter what you do. But if the fish are healthy and not overly stressed, they will be ok. The only concern is new additions that recently went through the stresses of shipping and being introduced to a little glass box and new "housemates".

Suprised to hear you say that. The science tells us this is wrong and so does experience. The life-cycle of this parasite is well known and the ways to defeat are well known. The only way this will "always" be in your tank is if you have failed to eradicate it. If you haven't taken the steps to protect your fish fron Ich then they could become prone to it at any time. While it is also well known that a healthy fish can fight off this organism it only takes a bit of stress to weaken a fish and it could die. Water quality or agression issues are factors in any closed system so why take the risk? Quarantine all new fish and treat with hyposalinity for 6 weeks, be careful, and that's all it takes. I have been through 3 QT cycles using a 20g tank. The first 2 went perfectly but the 3rd was a disaster. I'll be using a 50g tank in the future as it's easier to control water quality and the larger the better to ease a fish's stress.

 

[Lunchbucket]

i'm sort of w/ NextDog. if you did it right you would eradicate the ICH parasite and not have it in thier tank. but how many people will do a 6wk or longer hypo treatment on ALL incoming fish??? id say very few. thus this is the reason we always have it in our systems...we don't take the needed procedures to eradicate it.

it is a PITA to do this i agree and most of the time a fish can fend it off...but like NextDog said you give them any stress and they will have ICH again or worse

Lunchbucket

 

[NexDog]

Buy your fish in batches while stocking and then it's not such a pain. And a fully stocked tank only needs a fish every now and again to replaced something that died somehow. And by then you'd be used to QT.

 

[Travis]

My problem with that is why subject a fish to a 6 week hypo treatment when you don't even know if it is sick in the first place. I find that to be unethical. But who knows... to some it may be worth it for the reassurance that ich never gets in their tank. For me, I'm not worried about ich as a healthy fish will have no problems fending it off.

Even if you subject every fish to a 6 week hypo what are you going to do about other diseases like bacteria and viruses? If you don't treat every fish for them then they could also get in your tank. And some of those diseases are a lot more dangerous than ich.

 

[NexDog]

If I knew the treatment for all viruses and diseases then I'd do that before adding a new fish. I think it's at least a 50/50 risk that a fish will have Ich - even if it's a 25% risk - still enough for me. This parasite probably infects alot of fish in the sea but as they are in their natural unstressful habitat they can easily fend off the parasite. Put the fish in a few gallons of water in a glass box and......

 

[Lunchbucket]

Travis - i thought you said that all systems have ICH....if all systems have ICH then how can you say

My problem with that is why subject a fish to a 6 week hypo treatment when you don't even know if it is sick in the first place.

supposedly the hypo treatment is supposed to be easy on fish.

Taken from ATJ's hypo page

When fish are under stress, one of the processes that is affected is ion regulation. This means they have difficulty adjusting the concentration of ions (sodium, chloride, etc.). Lowering the salinity of the tank water makes the concentration of ions closer to that of the fish"s internal fluids and reduces the fish"s efforts to maintain the correct concentrations.

i agree it is PITA but how do we know if fish do or don't have a disseas...thus we should QT all fish...but most don't. i don't as i don't have sufficient room in my apt to do it wheni have a big tank hopefully i will

Lunchbucket

 

[Bax]

I did not have the luxury of a QT with my first tank, a 26 g, now that I have upgraded, as much of a PITA as it is and as hard as it is not to plunk that new fish into the reef, QT is the way to go. I agree with batches of fish where practical, as long as you don't over crowd the QT.

acronom, Your Kole may pull out of it, give him time ... you didn't want fish anyway so one fish is fine right? Feed him with vitamins and garlic added and see if he starts to eat better. Just don't add any other fish for a couple of months after his ick clears up.

 

[arconom]

Your right Bax

I will try to feed him what you suggest. What food do I try and I soak it in Garlic? What does the garlic do? I read this remedy all the time but skim those parts since fish do not interest me atm.

But now I'm interested. Also do the Cleaner shrimp help?

 

[Zoom]

You know I had Ick and some larger parasites on my fish after my RBTA spawn in my tank.
I agreed with Travis ,where this Ick come from in my tank was not one thing put in this tank for a long time . I have quarantine every thing i put in this tank and still got ICK. I did use a garlic-ginger mix for a month now and all the fish are now 100% . I believe that any healthy fish can kick the Ich on its own . They can tell me all they want but i know it was no Ick introduced in my tank it was just doormat and waiting for the right time to strike.

 

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6233240#post6233240 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lunchbucket
Travis - i thought you said that all systems have ICH....if all systems have ICH then how can you say

My problem with that is why subject a fish to a 6 week hypo treatment when you don't even know if it is sick in the first place.

Yes, I believe the vast majority of systems have ick laying dormant in them. This includes systems where every fish was quarantined. Quarantine does not guarantee that you will not introduce anything to your tank. It only increases the chances that a disease will not be introduced. The only way to guarantee it is by treating every fish for every disease possible before adding it to the tank. That is very unethical, IMO, considering that some of the treatments are poisons and any treatment is going to be stressful for the fish.

supposedly the hypo treatment is supposed to be easy on fish.

Lunch, you know better than that. Didn't you lose a fish or 2 to hypo? It may be "easier" on the fish than some other methods of treatment but that does not mean it is not stressful for the fish.

 

[masterswimmer]

Based on what Zoom (Steve) said, there is absolutely no reason to QT a fish. He hasn't added anything to his tank in a long time (now this is subjective of course) but ich still appeared.

One of the reasons I would recommend QT, not for ich treatment, but for observation. To see if the fish shows any signs of viral infections, parasites, or ich even.

I have never QT'd my fish and knock on wood I've been fortunate to have dodged the bullet for just about two years now.

Choose healthy looking, hungry/eating fish from your LFS, in person and your chances are better than buying fish from an online source where you don't get the opportunity to select your parameters for a healthy looking fish. I do buy just about everything else online. Fish are the only exception.

Russ

 

[Travis]

When fish are under stress, one of the processes that is affected is ion regulation. This means they have difficulty adjusting the concentration of ions (sodium, chloride, etc.). Lowering the salinity of the tank water makes the concentration of ions closer to that of the fish"s internal fluids and reduces the fish"s efforts to maintain the correct concentrations.

This statement really doesn't mean much. What it does mean is that the hypo will be less stressful on a stressed fish in regards to one bodily function -- ion regulation. What about the multitude of other bodily functions that are going on? For example, consider changes in buoyancy... or decreased 02 concentrations in the water... these are just 2 examples of things that happen with decreased salinity.

 

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6234741#post6234741 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
Based on what Zoom (Steve) said, there is absolutely no reason to QT a fish.

I don't think he was implying that.

IMO and IME, QT does decrease the chances of adding diseases to the tank. But there are some diseases that seem to be able to lay dormant in the fish and can make it past the QT period without being noticed. But that is only a small percentage of diseases, so QT is still beneficial for all of the other diseases that are very likely to show up during the QT period. QT is also beneficial for the fish because it allows them time to adjust to living in a glass box and eating prepared foods. This will make the transition into the display less stressful on them, which will also decrease the chances of lowering their immune systems and allowing a disease to flare up when they are first introduced to the display.

 

[NexDog]

I've lost fish to Ich and Brook. I've lost fish to poor control of hyposalinity. But since starting hypo one of my fish have contracted outward forms of Ich. I thought that after my last disastrous attempt at hypo that I'd infected some fish in my tank but jus turned out to be sand.

All of you with amazing pet shops and dedicated fish shops might be able to get Ich-free fish. I've seen Ich in every single one of my local store's tanks and I know they don't treat with anything. Therefore I have to assume all fish have Ich. Also I'd rather take a fish with Ich but is otherwise healthy and eating and cure it than buy on online from a shop in Tokyo.

So I guess I'm saying that in my particular case I do what I have to to ensure the survivability of my fish. As Russ and Steve said, they've had Ich-free problems for years without quarantine but having lost fish to Ich, I just don't want to take the risk.

 

[Bax]

arconom

I like cleaners. I am a little hesitant to go with a CBS as they get pretty big and can be aggressive to smaller critters. I have a fire/blood shrimp and several peppermints in my 75 g. Although I don't have any ick (at least that I know of) I do have big time micro bubbles from a CL that is sucking air that I need to take down to seal up. The fish are bothered by the micro bubbles and visit the cleaning stations several times a day. It is an amazing thing to watch.

In my 26, when I added my coral beauty, I did not QT. The blood shrimp cleaned the CB. I observed it pulling several parasites off the CB. 18 months later my CB is the picture of health.

So IMO, get a shrimp ... it's not a fish, right?

 

[Zoom]

Based on what Zoom (Steve) said, there is absolutely no reason to QT a fish. He hasn't added anything to his tank in a long time (now this is subjective of course) but ich still appeared[/QUOTE
If you can get healthy fish an put them in a good large aged tank I don't think you need to quarantine .
But who has that tank no one! so we take a change every time we put anything in the tank.Last thing I put in my tank was over a year a go, still got the Ick