A ~19,000 Gallon Aquarium

[nahham]

A store in Atlanta, GA "Warehouse Aquarium" uses a 55 gallon plastic drum for their surge device in the coral pool (it is literally a pool, three thousand gallons). The barrel is up 10-15 feet and plumbed with 6" PVC. About every 5 minutes it surges and there is a TON of flow. Don't know if a 55g barrel would be enough for flow, but it should be easy enough to build to see.



Oh, and subscribed!

Thanks for the info and welcome aboard, exits are in front and at the back, and in case of emergency just press the RED button

 

[nahham]

With a surface area so large, surge devices are a challenge. If I remember correctly, the dump tank on the 65,000 gallon reef tank at the Georgia (USA) Aquarium is 6,000 gallons and it fills and dumps every few minutes.

A big surge will put a duty load (moving force) on your front glass. The calculations your glass installer used are for a static load (relatively still water). Some surge or dump devices are noisy and splash too much. You can custom order a surge device for your application from this company. http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/?osCsid=2c8ecfc8dff9e2aa472251cb7a70d3b7

You can see a video of a "Tsunami" wave device that they make here. http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/video/tsunami.wmv

Thanks for the information. The Tsunami video is great. Why don't we have companies like this here??

You can do some research on "Carlson Surge Device". It is basically a header tank (reservoir above the display tank) with a siphon drain. There is also a "reverse Carlson device" that uses air to drive it. I think I may have posted a video of one earlier. Youtube has lots of videos, but mostly small scale units. Your site may offer further options due to the free water source.

I did find the basic design, but I'm wondering how can I scale it up. I'm just finished teaching a class so I didn't have enough time to spend on thinking about this. I'm back now and hopefully will figure it out.

You really should get thorough water tests done on the local water. I know you have reports that the water is "very good", but if you plan on keeping corals you may need to add supplementary chemicals before new seawater is added. As I mentioned before you may need to bleach (chlorinate) the water or ozonate it before you add it to the display tank.

Let's start with the water test and then go from there. I think it will be fine, but since it's an issue many of the forum members have raised, I should put it at rest. Hmmm need to borrow the testing device from the guys at the ministry..

 

[nahham]

Nahham, after seeing the sandstorms in UAE and especially that this tnak is near a lot of sand I would guess it's very important to cover the glass with a pretective sheet as mentioned. Maybe glass is more resistant to scratching than acrilic but it can be "sanded" (multiple tiny holes can appear after sand hitting glass at high speed. we always see that on cars glass and paint.

I understand where you are coming from. Keep in mind though that the area around the tank will not stay the same as it is right now, much more is planned for it, and sea/beach sand (which is what covers the area around the tank) is much heavier than desert sand and this is why you don't see big sand storms around the beaches. At least I don't remember seeing any and I've lived next the beach all my life.

 

[Reefski's]

Atlantis Marine World in New York and Waikiki Aquarium both have surge tanks that are 300-500 gallons.

you can find pictures and info online about them.

my surge tanks are 75 gallon tanks that drain 30-40 gallons every few minutes. it takes about 30 seconds.

Carl

 

[tahiriqbal]

Sallam, Nahham. Masha-Allah... Everything looks great and well planned. I was wondering if you ever considered ATF, since everything seems to be very natural in your setup? Hopefully (Insha-Allah) you will start to yeild the results of your hard labour very soon.

If you are still looking at skimmer option then TMC in the UK does some lovely commercial skimmers. Here is a link if you ever think of taking the skimmer route http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/commercial.asp .

Good luck.

 

[mr.wilson]

Thanks for the information. The Tsunami video is great. Why don't we have companies like this here??

Paul at Oceansmotions does a lot of large scale wave and surge systems for public aquariums. Send him a brief description of what you have and what you want to accomplish and I'm sure he can recommend something you could surf on if you so desired

I did find the basic design, but I'm wondering how can I scale it up. I'm just finished teaching a class so I didn't have enough time to spend on thinking about this. I'm back now and hopefully will figure it out.

The hard part about scaling up that particular system for your application is it may not fit in with your sitting area, unless you can make sitting benches out of a horizontal header tanks. The creator (Bruce Carlson) developed the idea for the Waikiki Aquarium while he was the curator. As reefski stated, it is quite large. Some people use actuator valves, float switches and timers on header tanks for faster draining. http://www.haywardflowcontrol.com/ but the Oceansmotions system is more reliable more simple to use.

Let's start with the water test and then go from there. I think it will be fine, but since it's an issue many of the forum members have raised, I should put it at rest. Hmmm need to borrow the testing device from the guys at the ministry..

Yes indeed, a good relationship with the ministry is a huge asset. Apart from the usual water quality parameters you need to find out the calcium, carbonate hardness, and magnesium levels etc.. These can be easily supplemented with chemicals, but you might get lucky with the local water.

 

[Beaun]

I agree with using a simple carlson surge devise. The one at Atlantis Marine World is 300 gallons I believe.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359098

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/CirculationSystem.html

A Carlson surge device provides an intermittent flow of moderate duration (a function of the surge device reservoir volume) and adjustable surge frequency (a function of the reservoir fill rate). The surge produced is fairly realistic in that it creates a constant mass flow during the surge, and can be timed to provide surges of duration similar to those encountered on the wild reef.

The surge device has no moving parts and does not require cycling of a pump. The surge device relies on the creation of a siphon to automatically drain a reservoir at a flow rate several times greater than its constant fill rate. As the pump draws water from the show tank (or other source within the closed circulation system), it is pumped into a reservoir that is physically above the show tank water line. A siphon tube extends from the bottom inside of the reservoir, up through the side of the reservoir (at a point about 95 percent up the height of the reservoir), down the outside of the reservoir, and into the show tank. The external end of the siphon must extend down into the water of the show tank in order to provide a slight back pressure which helps the siphon to start automatically. When the reservoir fills to the top of the siphon, the inner half of the siphon tube will also be full. As the pump continues to raise the water level in the reservoir above the upper bend in the siphon tube, water will begin to spill over the bend in the tube and flow down into the show tank. This will create a siphon action that rapidly drains the reservoir into the show tank.

Several parameters are critical to the correct operation of the surge device. First, the siphon tube must be of sufficient diameter to allow the reservoir to drain faster than it can be filled by the pump-- otherwise the flow would simply be continuous and equivalent to that of the pump, or on the other hand, if the pumped flow is greater than the siphon flow, the reservoir will overflow.

The siphon tube must extend to the bottom of the inside of the reservoir otherwise the reservoir will never completely drain. Also, the siphon output must extend below the show tank water surface for the siphon to start automatically. Finally, as mentioned above, the reservoir must be physically higher than the show tank water level for the siphon to work.

 

[nahham]

Atlantis Marine World in New York and Waikiki Aquarium both have surge tanks that are 300-500 gallons.

you can find pictures and info online about them.

my surge tanks are 75 gallon tanks that drain 30-40 gallons every few minutes. it takes about 30 seconds.

Carl

Thanks for the information. I am wondering how high is your surge tank over your tank?

Sallam, Nahham. Masha-Allah... Everything looks great and well planned. I was wondering if you ever considered ATF, since everything seems to be very natural in your setup? Hopefully (Insha-Allah) you will start to yeild the results of your hard labour very soon.

If you are still looking at skimmer option then TMC in the UK does some lovely commercial skimmers. Here is a link if you ever think of taking the skimmer route http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/commercial.asp .

Good luck.

W'salam Tahir and thank you for the compliments. I'm glad you can join us. I have no idea what ATF is, can you explain?

I think the skimmer is not a major issue right now. There is a place to put it if need be though. Will look into your link when the time comes.

The hard part about scaling up that particular system for your application is it may not fit in with your sitting area, unless you can make sitting benches out of a horizontal header tanks. The creator (Bruce Carlson) developed the idea for the Waikiki Aquarium while he was the curator. As reefski stated, it is quite large. Some people use actuator valves, float switches and timers on header tanks for faster draining. http://www.haywardflowcontrol.com/ but the Oceansmotions system is more reliable more simple to use.

I'll have to draw something and send it for better discussion. I guesstmate the total space that can be allocated for the surge tank should hold around 300 gallons. Maybe two of those:

Yes indeed, a good relationship with the ministry is a huge asset. Apart from the usual water quality parameters you need to find out the calcium, carbonate hardness, and magnesium levels etc.. These can be easily supplemented with chemicals, but you might get lucky with the local water.

Will keep that in mind.. thanks..

I agree with using a simple carlson surge devise. The one at Atlantis Marine World is 300 gallons I believe.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359098

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/CirculationSystem.html

Thanks Beaun for the information. It is becoming clearer what I should do now. I would probably use two of the surge systems with the output pointed towards the rocks on either side of the tank, leaving the middle area of the tank nearly empty or with little rocks. I wouldn't use the combined system mentioned in the site because I want more flow. The pumps I'm thinking of installing on the surge tanks are the same I use for the water circulation (~40,000 gph) each. I need to test of the system will work though before actually installing it permanently. This should give me ample waterflow and combined with the water turnover the flow should be sufficient.. right?

BTW I really like your signature: "Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing. - Wernher von Braun."

 

[nahham]

Surge Tanks Positions and Sizes

Surge Tanks Positions and Sizes

Here is what I'm thinking regarding the surge tanks:

Enough? I'm thinking of placing the pumps away from the display and covering the plumbing (somehow). The only thing that will visible should be the pipes going down into the tank, and I'll paint those the same blue color. Those pipes should be positioned 1/3 of the way from the edge of the tank and the end of the pipe will have a 45 degree connection pointing at the rocks.

I might go with smaller pumps, the ones I have need 4 inch piping which should prove difficult to hide

 

[Reefski's]

i don't think they are big enough. mine are about 5 and 7 feet above the tank. the more height, the more velocity of the water.

on your tank i would think 5-700 gallons would be good. Joe at AMW is going to make his bigger.

 

[mr.wilson]

I agree with reefski that you will not get enough pressure for a decent siphon at that height.

Back to your seawater, you should be drawing water from the sea when the tide is high and you have fresh water from farther out to sea. You should take water samples of low a d high tide, along with some flowers to the fisheries ministry lab

 

[tahiriqbal]

Sorry ATS not ATF and it stands for Algal Turf Scrubber....Few examples here.....

http://images.google.co.uk/images?s...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQsAQwAw

Tahir (Wa-Sallam)

 

[hovhanh]

this build is INSANE! you should charge people admissions to see this when it's done.

 

[stevek480]

Is there any way to build a platform next to the aquarium to hold the surge tanks? Then you could make them as big as you want and not have to worry about blocking sunlight from more parts of the tank.

 

[KarlBob]

250 gallons worth of surge tanks may not be proportionally as large as the devices that some other huge tanks use, but I think it's worth pointing out that many, many tanks in the tens to hundreds of gallons range don't use surge devices. Having any surge device, even 250 gallons at a low elevation over the tank, will have more effect than running the system without any surge devices at all. Maybe there's some feature of super-sized tanks that makes surge more important for them than for typical in-home tanks, but surge devices might not be strictly necessary for this build.

If the tank will have surge devices, I think that using them as benches is a great idea.

 

[Scooter902]

Great build!!!! Tagging along....

 

[nahham]

i don't think they are big enough. mine are about 5 and 7 feet above the tank. the more height, the more velocity of the water.

on your tank i would think 5-700 gallons would be good. Joe at AMW is going to make his bigger.

The surge tanks should be around 4 - 6 feet over the water level (I'll need to measure it). I could always make the tanks taller to hold more volume but then it will obstruct the view of the sea from the villas (not mine .. but still ). I calculated the surge tanks with .20m height, if I up that to .40 then the big tank on the left could contain around 500 gallons and the one on the right around 125 gallons. I am worried about the height though. Hmm ..

Back to your seawater, you should be drawing water from the sea when the tide is high and you have fresh water from farther out to sea. You should take water samples of low a d high tide, along with some flowers to the fisheries ministry lab

We are getting the water from the saltwater well remember?

I'm going tomorrow to the ministry of water and environment's center for ocean research to get some more information about some of the stuff we talked about here and get them to come test the water in the well; they would rather come out and check the water than lend me their testing equipment. I also didn't have a direct answer regarding where to test the water for the more crucial parameters you've mentioned. I said "do you want me to get you samples" and they said "samples? what samples? what are you talking about? why are you calling us? LOL j/k" So I figured talking in person is much better, I'm more persuasive in person . Wish me luck

Sorry ATS not ATF and it stands for Algal Turf Scrubber....Few examples here.....

http://images.google.co.uk/images?s...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQsAQwAw

Tahir (Wa-Sallam)

Thank you for this Tahir, a very interesting idea. It fits the philosophy of the tank. I need to read some more about it but it seems that a mangrove/mud scrubbers is a better alternative in my situation; I do have a large refugium after all. Read more about the mangrove/mud scrubbers here: http://netclub.athiel.com/Ianrefug.htm. I think the issue here is the use of fresh sea water all the time, which in turn depends on the quality of the water to begin with. Complications complications..

this build is INSANE! you should charge people admissions to see this when it's done.

Thanks for the compliment and for stopping by. The look on people's faces is payment enough . I had a couple of people come by and their jaws dropped and it doesn't have water in it yet.

Is there any way to build a platform next to the aquarium to hold the surge tanks? Then you could make them as big as you want and not have to worry about blocking sunlight from more parts of the tank.

There is always a way. I, however, don't want to cover the view, which makes it difficult to build anything over at the water, and that was the main reason the tank and fish farm was below land level. I have a couple of alternatives to think of, will post some ideas when I have time to sketch them.

250 gallons worth of surge tanks may not be proportionally as large as the devices that some other huge tanks use, but I think it's worth pointing out that many, many tanks in the tens to hundreds of gallons range don't use surge devices. Having any surge device, even 250 gallons at a low elevation over the tank, will have more effect than running the system without any surge devices at all. Maybe there's some feature of super-sized tanks that makes surge more important for them than for typical in-home tanks, but surge devices might not be strictly necessary for this build.

If the tank will have surge devices, I think that using them as benches is a great idea.

KarlBob, always a pleasure to hear what you have to say

If those are to be used as actual benches then their heights can easily be 60cm which will bring the total volume of the big and small surge tanks to 635 and 190 gallons respectively. This will leave us to deal with the height of the surge tanks in relation to the tank, which I cannot figure out yet..

 

[nahham]

Great build!!!! Tagging along....

Thanks for the compliment Scooter and for stopping by. Stay tuned for more exciting updates. I do want to have water in the tank eventually . Fish, corals, and rocks would be good too .

 

[footbagger311]

Where are the rest of the pix? I'm excited.

 

[daniel89]

*gets jealous from your build and runs to daddy* can i have your credit card