Ok, so there's someting I'm unclear about with respect to ich and quarentine tanks. So let's say I get a fish and it was purchased from a place with ich present, but becuase the fish wasn't unduly stressed, so the ich never appeared. However, you buy this fish put it in your qt for a month, still doesn't show the ich and you say ok, this fish is ich free and put it in your dt. Now, it has to deal with your boss fish, and gets stressed, and low and behold, the ich surfaces. You say to yourself, the entire time it was in my qt, I watched carefully and never saw any ich...So what are you supposed to do about this? Doesn't this make the qt process somewhat pointless since you can try as hard as poss to keep your DT ich free, but this circumstance could completley blow that. My final question is should you then have copper always circuating in your qt to kill any parasite present while quarantining? Would that be the only way to ensure your dt stays ich free??
A breech to the Ich philosphy
- Thread starter MiamiZach
- Start date
Triton_Z
Member
You are exactly right as Ich can remain hidden in the gills and not display any immediate symptoms. Longer QT durations and prophylactic treatment with copper (cupramine) can help.
Check out Steve's (Snorvich) blog post (highlighting tmz's thread post) on "How I suggest adding new fish" :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=474
I think a method like tank transfer or prophylactic treatment with copper (cupramine) are likely the best methods to prevent introduction of ich into your DT. I am considering tank transfer as a QT method on any new fish. This is new to me.
I currently use FW dips with methylene blue as the first "bath" before any fish goes in the QT for fluke/worms/others eradication and ID.
Most advocate at least 8 weeks of QT versus 4 weeks as well.
Check out Steve's (Snorvich) blog post (highlighting tmz's thread post) on "How I suggest adding new fish" :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=474
I think a method like tank transfer or prophylactic treatment with copper (cupramine) are likely the best methods to prevent introduction of ich into your DT. I am considering tank transfer as a QT method on any new fish. This is new to me.
I currently use FW dips with methylene blue as the first "bath" before any fish goes in the QT for fluke/worms/others eradication and ID.
Most advocate at least 8 weeks of QT versus 4 weeks as well.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
^^^^^^I agree^^^^^
Although controversial, prophylactic treatment with copper is a must for me; along with other QT procedures. I keep lots of fish and haven't seen a parasite in any of my tanks since I started the procedure. I think tank-transfer would be a great way to prevent ich too.
In any case, although ich prevention never reaches 100%; a QT and a strict QT regimen will prevent most of it. No QT won't prevent any of it; or velvet, brooklynella, etc.; both far deadlier than ich. I worry more about velvet than ich. If ich gets into one of my DTs; I can deal with it and probably save most/all fish. It will be a pita, of course. If velvet got in; I'm sure I'd lose most of them.
Many LFS run low levels of copper 24/7; but not at a level high enough to kill much ich, this level also can hide the presence of other parasites. IMO, a home QT with copper at less than .35 (Cupramine) does next to nothing. Treating for 4 weeks at a real dosage (.35-.50) works almost all of the time---but not 100% of the time. The 100% is simply not obtainable.
Although controversial, prophylactic treatment with copper is a must for me; along with other QT procedures. I keep lots of fish and haven't seen a parasite in any of my tanks since I started the procedure. I think tank-transfer would be a great way to prevent ich too.
In any case, although ich prevention never reaches 100%; a QT and a strict QT regimen will prevent most of it. No QT won't prevent any of it; or velvet, brooklynella, etc.; both far deadlier than ich. I worry more about velvet than ich. If ich gets into one of my DTs; I can deal with it and probably save most/all fish. It will be a pita, of course. If velvet got in; I'm sure I'd lose most of them.
Many LFS run low levels of copper 24/7; but not at a level high enough to kill much ich, this level also can hide the presence of other parasites. IMO, a home QT with copper at less than .35 (Cupramine) does next to nothing. Treating for 4 weeks at a real dosage (.35-.50) works almost all of the time---but not 100% of the time. The 100% is simply not obtainable.
Thanks for the input guys. Def going to run some level of cupramine to give myself the best odds. one final q: my lfs says even if you let your tank fowler for 2 months w no fish, ich will still survive. Says it will go dormant and just come back when u reintroduce fish, so basiclly it's impOssinlemto kill. Do u guys agree w this?
sandwi54
New member
Ich does not stay dormant. It's an obligatory parasite and needs a fish host to survive. After the theronts are formed, they can remain without a fish host for up to 48 hours before they die. This is scientifically proven and repeatable.
What is not 100% known is the length of the ich life cycle. Studies have shown that at cold temperature, the longest life cycle observed is 72 days. Are there "special" strands that can survive longer? Possibly, and we don't know. Most failures of ich treatment can be attributed to insufficient fallow time and improper treatment protocols. I now recommend 10-week fallow time.
Of course, like MrTusk said, nothing is 100% of the time. Sometimes when we do everything right, the result is still not what we expected.
72 days is the longest period of time noted in studies for the cyst t oreamin viable nd as note taht's in cold water. Ther are thousands of strains of ich though.
Tank transfer is really easier than it may sound. Small plain tanks are easy to take down and dry out and reset. Gentle capture is easy too if you take all the equipment an resting pvc resting spots and drain the tank down to a few inches of water before attempting to catch the fish. Every 3 days equals a 100% water change lessening any ammonia concerns. A precautionary standard dose of an ammonia detoxifier on day 2 is extra cautious. sNo meds ,so no worries about therapuetic levels or specific specimen sensitivity.
Tank transfer is really easier than it may sound. Small plain tanks are easy to take down and dry out and reset. Gentle capture is easy too if you take all the equipment an resting pvc resting spots and drain the tank down to a few inches of water before attempting to catch the fish. Every 3 days equals a 100% water change lessening any ammonia concerns. A precautionary standard dose of an ammonia detoxifier on day 2 is extra cautious. sNo meds ,so no worries about therapuetic levels or specific specimen sensitivity.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I agree on the tank-transfer; I'm slowly becoming a convert. Its easy and simply makes sense.
Just some drivel on ich. Although its frustrating as hell and there is no real source of 100% accurate info; we hobbyists have done a fair job of finding ways to deal with it. We're dealing with a protozoan parasite that, in the big picture, just isn't a big interest to science or any government agency or company that would fund a comprehensive study. this may change as the SW commercial aquaculture industry grows But, as you noted, because of all the strains of ich; we may never have a complete solution. Small creatures have an amazing ability to survive; like cockroaches.
But, IMO & IME, the fact that there is no 100% solution, is not an excuse to avoid doing everything we can that does work. Sometimes QT, fallow tanks, copper,etc., do fail. However, the vast majority of the time they work and I believe that if errors (and shortcuts) on our part were eliminated;successful prevention percentages would be even higher. Also IMO, I believe the number of failures that involve hobbyist errors (including delaying action) is much higher than it needs to be. Not referring to this thread at all; but there have been several recent threads suggesting, to me anyhow, that because ich prevention/elimination could not be 100% guaranteed, then why bother trying. If that reasoning becomes popular....the small percentage of ich that slips through will become the norm instead of the exception.
sandwi54
New member
Couldn't agree more. I cannot comprehend not QT new fish to prevent disease spreading. There is no way I would put in danger those fish that I took years to raise from babies to full adults.
Can't wait to start experimenting with this once I move and have more room for more tanks. Between tank transfer and Chloroquine Phosphate, I, for one, would be happy to eliminate copper from my list of options.
sandwi54
New member
Me too. I'm thinking about trying tank transfer on the new guinea fowl puffer that I'm getting. I have two 10g tanks that I can switch in and out.
:worried: Sorry for your troubles. Sometimes strains of ich can develop a level of resistance to copper meds. Particularly if they are exposed to less than therapeutic levels ,as sometimes happens during the chain of custody at retailers who often use a "little" copper in their tanks which, imo, is not useful.
Perhaps the fish still had some ich after treatment. Perhaps release and or binding of free copper in the qt was effected by organics in the qt which led to less than a theraeutic level. Hard to say. I doubt a cyst survived in a fishless tank for 12 weeks .
Crytocaryon irritans goes to a new genration every couple of weeks so it's pretty good at mutating to cope with environmental changes. This is one reason , I think, for inconsistent results with hypo salinity. Copper is usually quite lethal to the free swimming phase. Tank transfer leaves it all behind as the parasites leave the fish within 3 to 7 days.
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