A handful of issues and questions

[ForeverNoob]

Ok. I am likely to ramble and type streams of consciousness in this post, so please forgive me.

I may have rushed to get my setup back up after a 5 year absence from the hobby. A little background:

I have a 65 gallon tank with a ~20 gallon sump, corallife 125 skimmer and a wet/dry system with bioballs for filtration. I had about 35 pounds of dead rock from a previous tank, bought 10 pounds, and was given 25 pounds. I bought about 60 pounds of live sand. I cycled the tank for about 1.5 months.

My tank residents are 20 red leg hermits, 20 or so various snails, an emerald crab, two peppermint shrimp, two small clowns and four small blue/green chromis.

I rotate what I feed the tank which consists of Ocean Nutrition Formula Two, Mysis and Brine shrimp and dry pellets. I have been supplementing the calcium and alk with Randy's two part for a couple of weeks now. (I used the low demand dosing about and dose once per day manually) Bryopsis has really taken hold in the tank so I have been dosing 10 ml of Tech M every other day for the past week or so (the bottle says to dose more but I cannot get a magnesium test until this weekend and did not want to increase the amount from the baseline salt mix too fast without knowing the real numbers). I also run Phosguard in a media bag and carbon sheets located above my bioballs.

My most recent parameters:

Temp: 82f
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
Phosphate: .5ppm
Salinity: 1.026
Alk: 9
Calcium: 420

The phosphate is super high and was prior to a water change.

I spotted a few white dots on the tail of one of my clowns the other day and decided that I need to make a plan of action for the future of my tank. No, I am an idiot and impatient and did not quarantine the fish before adding them to the tank (I did not have an extra tank until recently) The fish is not acting strangely and eats every day.

I have a spare 30 gallon tank with a HOB filter, a coralife 65 gallon protein skimmer and more than enough uncycled live rock to fill that tank.

I realize that reading my mistakes will make a lot of people cringe, and rightly so, but I would appreciate any input!

Ok here are some of my questions:

Do I definitely need to take the fish out of the tank to treat? Does Ruby Reef Kick-Ich (which claims to be invert safe) and other similar products work?

How quickly do I need to QT the fish? Can I wait for a cycle of the 30g? (I was hoping not the add the algae ridden DT rock, just to have another headache to deal with)

I have read between 60 and 90 days to get rid of Ich in my DT, is that correct?

If I do QT, what is the best copper-based medication?

If I wanted to make the QT without a sand bed, the LR, skimmer and the HOB, would that be enough filtration for a few months?

After treatment and returning my fish to the DT, would the live rock die off if I shut off everything and left the water? Would it eventually stink?

With no fish in the DT, how much and of what should I feed the other critters?

How inefficient are the media bags submerged in my sump compared to other methods?

As for getting rid of the algae and bryopsis, if I were to take the rocks out of the DT and scrub them down would the algae grow back assuming I get the parameters in order?

Again, thanks in advance for any input!

 

[MondoBongo]

Do I definitely need to take the fish out of the tank to treat? Does Ruby Reef Kick-Ich (which claims to be invert safe) and other similar products work?

yes. i would never treat for anything in tank. and ich treatments with claim to be invert safe, would not be effective against ich. it is an invertebrate itself.

How quickly do I need to QT the fish? Can I wait for a cycle of the 30g? (I was hoping not the add the algae ridden DT rock, just to have another headache to deal with)

i would look in to the Tank Transfer Method (aka TTM). it can be done with a few 5 gallon buckets if need be. it is an effective way to get rid of ich.

I have read between 60 and 90 days to get rid of Ich in my DT, is that correct?

that is correct. usually 72 days for a fallow period is what i have seen recommended. longer would be better.

If I do QT, what is the best copper-based medication?

again i would use TTM instead of copper. copper is hard to dose correctly, and can be difficult to maintain the correct therapeutic levels.

If I wanted to make the QT without a sand bed, the LR, skimmer and the HOB, would that be enough filtration for a few months?

if you're using an uncycled QT tank, then get yourself an ammonia locker product like AmQuel or SeaChem Prime. do not use these if you're using copper though. you can also manage water quality with large water changes (50+%) and siphoning out all uneaten food every day.

After treatment and returning my fish to the DT, would the live rock die off if I shut off everything and left the water? Would it eventually stink?

i would leave things running as they are, and ghost feed the tank to make sure your bacteria populations stay at the correct levels for the reintroduction of livestock. you would also have your clean up crew in there i would assume, so don't go turning things off. stopping water movement would end up with things getting nasty.

With no fish in the DT, how much and of what should I feed the other critters?

i would probably just use a pinch or two of fish food each day. either pellets or flakes or whatever you have handy. probably would clip some nori to a rock if you're concerned about your algae eaters.

How inefficient are the media bags submerged in my sump compared to other methods?

depends on the media, and how much flow thru you can get. obviously using them in bags is better than nothing, but not as good as having a reactor.

As for getting rid of the algae and bryopsis, if I were to take the rocks out of the DT and scrub them down would the algae grow back assuming I get the parameters in order?

manual removal can help, but ultimately nutrient control and having the correct clean up crew will get you further.

 

[gone fishin]

Ok here are some of my questions:

Do I definitely need to take the fish out of the tank to treat?If you have ich then yes Does Ruby Reef Kick-Ich (which claims to be invert safe) and other similar products work? IMO worthless

How quickly do I need to QT the fish? The longer you wait the more prolific the ich can be. Can I wait for a cycle of the 30g? I would suggest looking into the tank transfer method(TTM)(I was hoping not the add the algae ridden DT rock, just to have another headache to deal with)

I have read between 60 and 90 days to get rid of Ich in my DT, is that correct? 72 days fallow in the DT usually does the job

If I do QT, what is the best copper-based medication?I would look into TTM easier on the fish and more reliable IMO

If I wanted to make the QT without a sand bed, the LR, skimmer and the HOB, would that be enough filtration for a few months? A QT should not have sand or live rock. Only some pvc fittings for the fish to hide in.

After treatment and returning my fish to the DT, would the live rock die off if I shut off everything and left the water? Would it eventually stink? If you use LR in the QT I would toss it after it is done.

With no fish in the DT, how much and of what should I feed the other critters?It is really a trial and error thing depending on what you have.

How inefficient are the media bags submerged in my sump compared to other methods? I don't know.

As for getting rid of the algae and bryopsis, if I were to take the rocks out of the DT and scrub them down would the algae grow back assuming I get the parameters in order? Assuming the root cause of the issue is corrected then maybe. Bryopsis is a tough one to get rid off.



Again, thanks in advance for any input!

Mondo beat me.

 

[Reef Frog]

Ich & bryopsis? That's unfortunate. If it were me I'd start over. I'd bleach the rocks, sand & decontaminate the tank & do lanthium chloride to remove phosphates from the rock if you thing that's an issue. I would think it's quite likely with a phosphate level that high in a new tank. Bryopsis requires a tough & long procedure in a tank with animals. In the end this will be easier IMO.

The tank has to remain fishless for something like 72 days anyways and a brand new cycle is likely to take only about half that time.

I would recommend using GFO instead of Phosguard in the future to control phosphates.

 

[ForeverNoob]

Could 6 small fish live in a 30-gallon while I reset the 65 gallon tank?

 

[ForeverNoob]

Ich & bryopsis? That's unfortunate. If it were me I'd start over. I'd bleach the rocks, sand & decontaminate the tank & do lanthium chloride to remove phosphates from the rock if you thing that's an issue. I would think it's quite likely with a phosphate level that high in a new tank. Bryopsis requires a tough & long procedure in a tank with animals. In the end this will be easier IMO.

The tank has to remain fishless for something like 72 days anyways and a brand new cycle is likely to take only about half that time.

I would recommend using GFO instead of Phosguard in the future to control phosphates.

When you say bleach the rocks, do you mean literally with bleach I have in the laundry room?

I have read that Lanthanum Chloride is bad for some inverts - would I just use it while nothing is in water and cease use before adding my livestock back?

 

[heathlindner25]

Ich & bryopsis? That's unfortunate. If it were me I'd start over. I'd bleach the rocks, sand & decontaminate the tank & do lanthium chloride to remove phosphates from the rock if you thing that's an issue. I would think it's quite likely with a phosphate level that high in a new tank. Bryopsis requires a tough & long procedure in a tank with animals. In the end this will be easier IMO.

The tank has to remain fishless for something like 72 days anyways and a brand new cycle is likely to take only about half that time.

I would recommend using GFO instead of Phosguard in the future to control phosphates.

All of this.... it's taken me seven years to get rid of bryopsis and one of my tanks.... it's actually still there but turning brown and dying, I still have hope

 

[ForeverNoob]

All of this.... it's taken me seven years to get rid of bryopsis and one of my tanks.... it's actually still there but turning brown and dying, I still have hope

Is that seven years without a reset?

 

[ForeverNoob]

i would look in to the Tank Transfer Method (aka TTM). it can be done with a few 5 gallon buckets if need be. it is an effective way to get rid of ich.

Do I need to do this with all of the fish in the tank at the same time or just the one that is showing Ich spots?

 

[MondoBongo]

Do I need to do this with all of the fish in the tank at the same time or just the one that is showing Ich spots?

All of them will need run through the protocol as there is a high chance they're all exposed/infected.

How many other fish do you have? That will dictate how large the QT container will need to be. I usually use 10 gallon tanks, but you can scale that up or down depending on your fish size/number.

TTM plus some observation for a few weeks after should take care of the ich. And the timeline should mesh fairly well with the fallow period.

I don't know that I would nuke the display over ich, the fallow period should handle that just fine. However I can't speak to bryopsis, so I would say use your discretion there.

If you do go that route, I've prepared rocks before by using either a bleach water soak, then soak in RODI water and dechlorinator, OR using an acid bath.

You wouldn't want to use both, because if you mix acid and bleach, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[heathlindner25]

Do I need to do this with all of the fish in the tank at the same time or just the one that is showing Ich spots?

Oh yeah I don't normally reset things, like to watch things play out. It started as a peacock mantis 65, no sump. Tunze skimmer and live rock. I never wanted to put my hand in the tank to clean it so the bryopsis took over. He died after five years and the system was well established so I started adding dwarf angels and coral. After 5 years of vodka dosing and regular water changes along with three urchins and 2 turbo snails.It has almost been eradicated.

 

[Reef Frog]

When you say bleach the rocks, do you mean literally with bleach I have in the laundry room?

I have read that Lanthanum Chloride is bad for some inverts - would I just use it while nothing is in water and cease use before adding my livestock back?

Yes, regular strength household chlorine bleach without additives or scents. The exact recipie is on RC. Soak, rinse, dry & treat with a declorinating product like Prime for good measure. It's pretty easy.

One option with LC is to pick off all the snails and do the treatment in tubs or a Brute can. If fish & maybe corals are present LC is more risky and you must take precautions especially for the sake of fish. The phosphate precipitates & is crystallized and should be kept out of a display tank. Many good threads on this.

 

[ForeverNoob]

All of them will need run through the protocol as there is a high chance they're all exposed/infected.

How many other fish do you have? That will dictate how large the QT container will need to be. I usually use 10 gallon tanks, but you can scale that up or down depending on your fish size/number.

I have six fish at the moment, two clowns (one of which has Ich spots) and four Chromis.

 

[MondoBongo]

ok, that's a lot of fish for buckets. you would either need to use multiple buckets, or pick up some larger tanks. you can get 20 longs pretty cheap, usually on the $1/gal list.

PVC pipe sections for hiding space, etc...

the clowns i'm sure would be fine together. i don't keep chromis though, so i can't speak to them.

 

[ForeverNoob]

ok, that's a lot of fish for buckets. you would either need to use multiple buckets, or pick up some larger tanks. you can get 20 longs pretty cheap, usually on the $1/gal list.

PVC pipe sections for hiding space, etc...

the clowns i'm sure would be fine together. i don't keep chromis though, so i can't speak to them.

The Chromis are really social with each other, one of the reasons I wanted them as they sort of school together.

So do you think I could the 30 gallon, then transfer them into a 20L?

 

[ForeverNoob]

How does this timetable sound:

Day 1: Transfer all fish to QT tank with HOB filter, pvc for hiding, a heater, etc (what else do I need?)
Day 4: Transfer all fish to either a 5 gal buckets or a 20L that I purchase
Day 7: Transfer all fish to QT tank with new water
Day 10: Transfer all fish to either a 5 gal buckets or a 20L with new water
Day 13: Transfer all fish to QT tank with new water. Since now I have theoretically killed the Ich, per a post I found through Google, I add all of my inverts from the DT into the 30 gallon QT. I then remove all of my LR and do a bleach treatment, Prime treatment and LC treatment in a 20 gal brute.
--Not sure how long I should wait here--
--What should I do with the DT sand? 5g bucket rinse?--
Day 20 - Return LR to DT
--Wait for cycle and Ich farrow period--
Day 80 or 90 - Return fish and inverts to DT

Does Bryopsis live in the water column? Before returning the LR to the DT should I do a 100% WC? If I did that would I still need an Ich farrow period or could I go straight into the new cycle?

A couple of things I have not mentions:

I designed the stand and canopy way back when, probably 12 years ago when I was in high school, and made it so that maintenance in the sump area is difficult. I was trying to make everything hidden but ended up making this pretty tough on myself. So, if I make this reset, I want to move my sump and other equipment down into my basement. With the extra space, I can finally add an ATO, reactors, dosing, refugium, etc and greatly improve my tank quality.

Per the Reef Central head loss calculator, I will have about 13.1 feet of head loss. Can anyone suggest a budget pump to get about 500-600 gph? Is that sufficient turn over?

 

[MondoBongo]

yeah, that would work fine, but it will require a lot of water to keep those two going for the duration of TTM.

do a little reading on TTM first, before you decide on tank sizes, or whatever vessel(s) you choose. you go through a lot of water doing this method, but for me it has been easier than trying to correctly dose copper, and can be used on all fish (some fish don't tolerate copper medication), so it is a valuable technique to be able to understand and apply.

i know it's a lot to take in, especially when you're stressed out over the health of your fish, but here is some good reading on it:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

any questions, just ask.

 

[MondoBongo]

my TTM tanks don't use HOB filters or anything else. i get a bunch of cheap airstones and airline that i throw out after each transfer.

you can play around a little bit with the timeline. as long as you're within 72 hours of the transfer you're good.

what i usually do for all new arrivals:

Day 1 - fish are placed in new tank with pvc hiding spots, and an air stone. i use old pieces of acrylic for tops to help prevent jumpers and mitigate evaporation.

Day 2 - siphon out an uneaten food, do a small water change.
Day 2 Evening - set up the next transfer tank. get it full of water, air bubbler in, and start it coming up to temp so it is ready to go the next day. this is typically when i start prazi treatment as well.

Day 3 Morning - Transfer fish to the new tank. turn off the heater and air stone in the old tank. bleach the old tank.
Day 3 Evening - tear down old tank. throw away the airline and air stone that was in it. wash the tank and all pvc pipe sections and the heater in regular old tap water. dry everything completely with paper towels, and then sit in out to finish air drying.

then repeat that for a total of 6 transfers, the 7th transfer being where i move the fish to a longer term observation system for no less than 5 weeks.

this should sync up nicely with your fallow timeline in the display, so that after the observation period is over you should be just about ready to put everyone back in the big pool.

i treat all of the TTM tanks with ammonia binder, either AmQuel, SeaChem Prime, or similar, two rounds of prazi treatment for 5 - 7 days each.

 

[ForeverNoob]

then repeat that for a total of 6 transfers, the 7th transfer being where i move the fish to a longer term observation system for no less than 5 weeks.

So by this I would not add my inverts to the QT until day 21 (3 day treatment cycles x 7 swaps)?

 

[MondoBongo]

I would leave the inverts in the display. The infected tank has to be free of fish for the fallow period, but inverts are fine.