A question for long time (5+ years) DSB keepers

[garygb]

I have found a deep sand bed to be very effective at keeping my nitrates undetectable. However, I've read articles and posts on RC that suggest that eventually I will have to replace the sand to prevent a "crash." My question is: Can a DSB of fine aragonite (oolitic to ~2mm) that is on average 5 to 6 inches deep be maintained indefinitely? If so, what are the precautions/efforts I need to take to ensure that my DSB continues to be effective and safe in my tank. This is a 40 gallon breeder tank with the DSB in the display (there is no sump). I would say a there is a moderate bioload, with say the equivalent of 1/3 silverside of food per day going into the tank. Other filtration in the tank includes a protein skimmer and a power filter with activated carbon and Polyfilter.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[billsreef]

The only times a DSB turns into a crash worthy event is when people take a "low maintenance" equals "no maintenance" attitude with them. With a good selection of detritivores, sand stirrers and the occasional siphoning of small patches, it can run for years without problem.

 

[RicksReefs]

yup, IMO, to many people put to many sandbed predators in the tank i.e. wrasses, stars, and other 'sandsifters' (not 'stirrers' like nassarius) and without the little critters in the sand, it's efficiency goes down, leading to problems.

if you can shield the sides of the sandbed from light in that 40 breeder (or other smaller tanks), you'll get better results. light entering thru the sides allows algae to grow in the sand, which puts oxygen into the lower levels and reduces your anoxic and anaerobic layers (which are the nitrate reducers). however the caveat is that light is reflected down thru the glass pane into the sand layers, not just from external sources so sheilding is tough to fully accomplish.

 

[garygb]

Thank you guys for your information. Regarding nassarius snails, I've had one in the tank for months and I just added two more for a total of three. Do you think that is enough? I have begun doing some siphoning periodically, and I will continue to upon your suggestion Bill. I've read some posts where they say not to siphon because it disturbs the anaerobic bacteria, but I've only siphoned the top inch or so, so I assume that's not causing any problems. Is this how you would suggest I continue to do it (only the top inch or so of sand)?

 

[Mykel Obvious]

Ok, so I don't have a current tank running, but I've been studying DSBs for quite some time and reading everything I can get my hands on...

I think you are short quite a few critters... in a 40 breeder, I'd keep at least 10 Nassarius (more likely I'd go 20)...

I suggest you read all you can on Deep Sand Beds and Live Sand... the more biodiversity you have, the better off your sand bed is...

Here's a few articles to get you started:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/livesand.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
http://www.aquaristsonline.com/blog...one-of-the-most-effective-filtration-methods/

I'd also look somewhere like www.ipsf.com or http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html for a tune up kit... make sure you have things like bristle worms, Spaghetti Worms, mini-brittle stars and other sand bed critters... every year or so, I'd suggest adding a bit of sand to top off the bed and another kit from somewhere to keep your biodiversity high

HTH,
mikey

 

[garygb]

Thank you Mykel. It sounds like I'm definitely on the low side with the nassarius snails. I have bristle worms and some spaghetti worms, but no mini-brittle stars.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Hey Garygb - I've run a dsb on my system for over 7 years and it hasn't crashed.

In my next system, I'm adding a remote dsb (dsb in a bucket - Calfo explains this well in some RC posts and convinced me) and having a shallow display sandbed (to keep wrasses happy and aesthetically pleasing).

I agree with everyone else that sandbeds benefit greatly from biological diversity. I have conches too - not sure if those are still considered beneficial stirrers / detritivores.

 

[dougie]

if u think the more life the better then natural sand has to be the best IMO so i was wondering if anybody has ever had a deep sand bed (DSB) in there sump or tank, made completely up of natural live sand, say from the beach or river or whatever???? do u think it would be safe?

i can only imagine the amount of life it would contain, i never had a problem with NSW, so any opinions?

pollutents should not be a problem, the collecting site is extremely clean, huge amounts of fish life and other marine life. i would scuba dive and collect from the very bottom which is about 15m deep.

also what do u think about using natural seaweed in a refugium?

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12684189#post12684189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dougie
also what do u think about using natural seaweed in a refugium?

:thumbsup:

After all, everything in our tanks started out in the ocean

 

[gary faulkner]

In 1976, I collected my own crushed coral from the beach at Myrtle Beach,SC where I lived at the time. Back then undergravel filters and crushed coral with fish only was the only thing happening.

I screened the crushed coral to get the proper size. That tank ran for at least 5 or 6 years without a problem. 100G IIRC

We were constantly getting stuff from the beach that had washed up.
I don't remember having any problems with this either. Now days people say everything on the beach will nuke your tank.

But like billsreef said everything originated from the ocean.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Depends where you live....

A beach near New York would likely have a volume of pollutants detrimental to your tank.

Off the coast of Kauai or Nihau (the opposite corner of America), you'd get high quality sand, rocks, life. But you'd get arrested if you had a coral reef tank.

In New South Wales, you probably have very clean beaches - Australia seems to take its reef very seriously. Just don't get zapped by an irukanji while collecting! (or a great white, mantis shrimp, funnel web spider, etc)

I'm envious - there are fish on the SW coast of Australia that are breathtaking and unavailable anywhere else.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12687638#post12687638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE
A beach near New York would likely have a volume of pollutants detrimental to your tank.

In the middle of NY Harbor, perhaps. But we do have some very clean and even pristine beaches in NY Some of us even use the local sea water in our reef tanks

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12687171#post12687171 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gary faulkner
Now days people say everything on the beach will nuke your tank.

That statement cracks me up every time I hear it :lol:

 

[dougie]

thank you all so much for the replies.

Dougie.

 

[steve9]

SANDBEDS RULE....LOTS OF DIFFREENT CLEANERS....THE BED LAST A LIFETIME...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have found a deep sand bed to be very effective at keeping my nitrates undetectable. However, I've read articles and posts on RC that suggest that eventually I will have to replace the sand to prevent a "crash."

FWIW, I was told in all seriousness a while back that my sand bed had crashed, and I just didn't know it.

So what folks mean by crash may vary a lot.

One huge complication to taking most anyones opinion on this issue is that nitrate test kits are not very accurate. If you have one that reads 0 ppm, you'll think the sand is working great. if you have one that reads 50 ppm on the same system, you may think the sand is not working. Neither may be an accurate value.

FWIW, I do not think my present sand beds (which are many years old) do much for me. They do not keep the nitrate undetectable. My more recent refugia have not incorporated sand. I'm not saying they cannot work, but I do not belive mine do much.

 

[happyclam]

Well I guess it really is only ever one's opinion, I think DSB's are great, because if you over feed, any of the food that settles out, bristleworms, or somebody, will eat it. Also, as the populations grow, they breed and release eggs, or start to swim around. From there they get swept into the tank where they provide a natural food source to fish (such as anthias), corals (especially SPS), and filter-feeding inverts (sea apples and gorgonians). I think is particularly beneficial if you have SPS corals, because they can only eat fine foods, and I think this is sort of like the natural food they would eat in the wild. After all, we are trying to make are reef tanks as close to nature as possible, so we provide Meatal Halide lighting, 50-100x turniver rate in random current, and since the there are DSB's in the wild, why not in our systems as well?

 

[Reefun]

“After all, we are trying to make are reef tanks as close to nature as possible”

This is said a lot and is ridiculous. The ocean and a aquarium are two very different systems. To put things even remotely in perspective, gallons to inches, if you were to put a blue whale in your aquarium, it would be so small you couldn’t even see it. As far as the ocean having sand, it also has underwater volcanoes and sulphur vents, but I wouldn’t recommend putting those in your tank. There’s really just no comparison between the two. Having said that, I do believe a deep sand bed can be a very effective type of filtration when used properly.

 

[InsaneClownFish]

Great insight everyone. Has anyone read the advanced aquarist article that attempted to compare BB, SS and DSB export and chemical levels? The bottom line seemed to be that while the numbers were pretty similar along the board for all three methods- the DSB had the fewest livestock lost

 

[LJA]

What about adding to an existing DSB, Its not really DEEP, its about 2-4 inches and has been established for 4 months. If I wanted to add more on top what rate would everyone recommend?

I'm thinking about 1 cup a day or so.

Anyone?