A step toward self sustaining food supplies...

[tastydog]

My question:

If done properly, how much would proper constant doses of different phytoplanktons, rotifers, copepods and baby to adult brine shrimp affect the health of the tank inhabitants?

Meaning, how much of a benefit would there be compared to using frozen foods? I would still always vary the diet with other foods like Mysis, silverside, oyster and mussel. The idea though is to have no other purchased food supplements needed for a perfectly feed tank, (knowing there is no such thing, but as close as we can get). I don't want to buy cyclopleeze, phyto-feast or marine snow. I want to have my tank self-sustaining, and since I can't do that, I want to grow the foods that are depleted in closed systems and return them as they are removed.

As I mentioned in a previous thread I am starting my own phytoplankton cultures and will use them to feed rotifers. I want to use both of those to culture copepods and brine shrimp. I will have a mix of strains separated so that I don't have dominance issues with different strains. I think there should be enough room for 4 strains of phyto, 2 strains of rotifers, 2 strains of copepods and a brine hatchery. The goal is to create a more self-sustaining system. I want to create less dependence on purchased foods and try to build and maintain a system that will provide a majority of the food for the tank. Obviously I will have to augment the fish diets with other foods, but the main source for everything else we be my cultures.

Ideally, over the next couple years I would like to come up with an automatic system that just needs weekly maintenance. Something you could install in line with the main system to drip live phyto, rotifers, copepods and brine into the system while also feeding each culture along the way. The phyto and a few fish would be the only ones that need to be manually fed.

One question may be: What corals and fish will be in the tank? My idea is not tank specific, it is reef general. I want the system to work for any fish or coral population. I would hope the system would work the same with all the variations found in a reef. One would just need to adjust the species, quantity and timing of the doses but from what I understand all reefs benefit from these organisms. Of course not every tank would be large enough or stocked enough to need something like this. However, that is part of my question because I am wondering, wouldn't every system benefit greatly from the addition of these live organisms to the tank if properly regulated?

So, now I will restate my only question:
A) How viable of a solution would culturing your own live foods, (phyto, rotifers, copepods and brine), be in sustaining a heavy population of inhabitants? Any population size?

B) Secondly, how much could this improve the health of the inhabitants?


Any ideas, thoughts or comments would be great. I know this is a complex question open to much debate and much to interpretation but overall, I just want to know how much better culturing your own live foods can be, if done right. Also, how much less you will need to feed other frozen or dried foods as a result.

Brandon

 

[FrankenReef]

I can't answer your question but I can offer a suggestion to add to your plan (which I like).

Include various macro algaes in your culturing plans to feed your tangs!

 

[Allmost]

well this is my Idea as well. I use no mechanical filteration except skimmer, and have 2 huge fuges, both with algea and DSB, to make system self sustaining.

not culture things outside but rather inside the system.

fish poops, some gets used up by corals, most gets ued up by pods and other zooplanktons, then those are eaten by corals and fish and back to the start of the cycle.

but it would never happen 100% in our reefs

my sump looks like a underside of an actuall reef after 6 months though mysids, pods, amphipods, sponges, worms, stars, tube rworms, feathure duster and many many more natural fiterations growing in it.

with increased life variety though, comes increased unwanted hich hickers, like hydroids.

 

[blasterman789]

Obviously I will have to augment the fish diets with other foods, but the main source for everything else we be my cultures.

Why? I've kept a huge variety of reef fish on a low mixed diet of nothing but freeze dried foods. Even suppodly fussy species like marine bettas and angels I've trained to eat a couple types of dry food. They were healthier, and my tank had fewer nutrient problems. The frozen reef food industry is about 99% marketing and 1% substance, and there is no scientific based reasons to feed captive fish decaying food in frozen blocks.

I totally agree with your closed loop idea, but feel it will have limited results. A few damsels or fire-fish for instance will have radically different needs than larger angels, triggers, or tangs.

 

[chuckreef]

I have six damsles in my 150. They've been fed cube (the small cubes) of baby brine shrimp once a week for over a year. They are all fat and healthy. I think if you did a fraction of what you said in paragraph two, you could keep a properly stocked (not overstocked) reef alive just fine without using any commercial foods. The problem, IMO, is people want a lot more fish (and larger fish too) than ever would naturally occurr in a 4 ft. x 2ft. space. Simply put, if its not stocked at a natural level (i.e., a sustainable level), then one can't expect to sustain it in a natural fashion. Our reefs, for the most part, are very artifical when you look at stocking density.

 

[Stuart60611]

This could work for your small reef-type fish. However, for your typical fowlr fish, I do not think this is doable. I have been searching for quite a while for an appropriate live food to cultivate for my carnivores in my fowlr. The best that I have been able to come up with is mollies weaned to saltwater. The problem is that their nutritional profile is really not optimal, although better than other freshwater fish, and it would be difficult to cultivate enough fry to sustain my larger fish. Ghost shrimp would be ideal, but they are not very easy to rear. I think it would be great if I could have a live food tank that I could rear live food to offer my predators, but I have yet to find a live food to rear that it nutritionally suitable and easy to maintain.

 

[tastydog]

Thanks for all the responses!

I can't answer your question but I can offer a suggestion to add to your plan (which I like).

Include various macro algaes in your culturing plans to feed your tangs!

Yes! That is something I forgot to mention. I just received some Gracilaria pacifica today and am going to toss it the fuge tonight, its in the fridge at work at the moment.

well this is my Idea as well. I use no mechanical filteration except skimmer, and have 2 huge fuges, both with algea and DSB, to make system self sustaining.

not culture things outside but rather inside the system.

fish poops, some gets used up by corals, most gets ued up by pods and other zooplanktons, then those are eaten by corals and fish and back to the start of the cycle.

but it would never happen 100% in our reefs

my sump looks like a underside of an actuall reef after 6 months though mysids, pods, amphipods, sponges, worms, stars, tube rworms, feathure duster and many many more natural fiterations growing in it.

with increased life variety though, comes increased unwanted hich hickers, like hydroids.

Awesome setup. I like it, if I had room, I would do that. I am working with limited space though. I think that is ideal, keeping larger remote systems connected to the entire system. I think this is a step beyond a fuge though. It is more of a "reactor" design. So you have phyto chamber, rotifer chamber, copepods, brine etc and all that dumps to the fuge that is connected to the entire system.

A few questions though just to keep fair and balanced comparisons.
1) How much do you feed your tank?
2) Do you notice that the inhabitants are healthier with all the live food you have naturally in the system?
3) Do you have any substrate in your tank as well, and how much live rock in the display?

Pics would be great too!

I plan to post my results along with documentation over time.

Why? I've kept a huge variety of reef fish on a low mixed diet of nothing but freeze dried foods. Even suppodly fussy species like marine bettas and angels I've trained to eat a couple types of dry food. They were healthier, and my tank had fewer nutrient problems. The frozen reef food industry is about 99% marketing and 1% substance, and there is no scientific based reasons to feed captive fish decaying food in frozen blocks.

I totally agree with your closed loop idea, but feel it will have limited results. A few damsels or fire-fish for instance will have radically different needs than larger angels, triggers, or tangs.

The main reason why: I want this system to work for a reef. This means coral, anemone and other inverts like shrimp and crabs. I believe that these need a more varied diet. Also, for excellent health and color, I also believe most fish need a varied diet. Tangs, angles we know need other foods and most reef tanks have one of these, (excluding nanos). I want the entire tank to have a more varied diet. The bulk of foods that dirty the water and need to be in constant supply are the ones I am wanting to culture and dose precisely. The other food additions will be less frequent and will pollute the water much less but are very much needed. So, in part you are correct. I won't need much more, but I will need something. Macroalgae grown in the fuge is one source, clams, mussels, mysis would be some others.

I just want to reiterate, the goal I have is to feed frozen, dried foods less there by reducing the nutrient levels in the tank, making the system healthier. Also, I hope to improve the health of the inhabitants, fish, coral and anemone alike. Plus it would be really cool!

I have six damsles in my 150. They've been fed cube (the small cubes) of baby brine shrimp once a week for over a year. They are all fat and healthy. I think if you did a fraction of what you said in paragraph two, you could keep a properly stocked (not overstocked) reef alive just fine without using any commercial foods. The problem, IMO, is people want a lot more fish (and larger fish too) than ever would naturally occurr in a 4 ft. x 2ft. space. Simply put, if its not stocked at a natural level (i.e., a sustainable level), then one can't expect to sustain it in a natural fashion. Our reefs, for the most part, are very artifical when you look at stocking density.

You make a good point and I think you are correct, there is no "mother nature natural solution". When I use the word natural in this context I mean a "natural food chain". Grow an abundance of each element in the food chain and release what is needed into the closed system. This is very much an artifical way to control what would be a natural chain of events.

This could work for your small reef-type fish. However, for your typical fowlr fish, I do not think this is doable. I have been searching for quite a while for an appropriate live food to cultivate for my carnivores in my fowlr. The best that I have been able to come up with is mollies weaned to saltwater. The problem is that their nutritional profile is really not optimal, although better than other freshwater fish, and it would be difficult to cultivate enough fry to sustain my larger fish. Ghost shrimp would be ideal, but they are not very easy to rear. I think it would be great if I could have a live food tank that I could rear live food to offer my predators, but I have yet to find a live food to rear that it nutritionally suitable and easy to maintain.

Yeah, basically this would only work for a reef tank. It could work for some FOWLR tanks but probably not most.


Sorry if there are any typos. I tried to respond to everyone, good stuff. Let's keep it going. I know I will, posting results and docs along the way.

Regards,
Brandon

 

[jmoney]

go to livebrineshrimp.com they have all the stuff, including the start cultures to make your own rotifers, phyto etc etc etc

 

[Allmost]

1) How much do you feed your tank?
I feed my tank twice a day, its actually 2 tanks and one sump, one is SPS tank, another is Seahorse tank. and as you knwo seahorses eat alot lol and produce alot of waste. I feed with frozen mysis only. some nori for the tangs in the SPS tang as well.
2) Do you notice that the inhabitants are healthier with all the live food you have naturally in the system?
well seahorses do love them and eat them in between meals. so do my other fish in SPS tank including my 2 mandarins and a six line .

3) Do you have any substrate in your tank as well, and how much live rock in the display?

2 DSB each 6" tall (one in fuge one in seahorse tank) SPS tank has a 4"DSB.
about 110 lbs of LR for the whole system.

once in a while I add new copepods from my culture, which gets eaten by seahorses ASAP.

 

[jasonrp104]

I have six damsles in my 150.

That's awesome, man. Fairly realistic too

 

[EnderG60]

I love the idea of this, but would it be possible to setup the system so that the phyto drips into the roti / pod systems and then have those drip into the main tank. Or do they have to be dosed manually?

 

[ctenophors rule]

I love the idea of this, but would it be possible to setup the system so that the phyto drips into the roti / pod systems and then have those drip into the main tank. Or do they have to be dosed manually?

technicaly their shouldn't be problems with nutrients coming from a rotifer or copepod culture, seeing as any nutrients that are capable of harming fish/ reef will in turn harm rotifers and pods. however systems like these are often finicky. also copepods cultures are usualy more efficient if only the adults are taken and juveniles/ nauplius larvae are allowed to stay. also you may not want to dose the same amount of phyto to your cultures as you do to your tank.

and brine shrimp definately manual, they produce lots of nutrients durring the hatching process.

 

[EnderG60]

Im not all that worried about extra nutrients. My system is a 300g with a 100g fuge, and two 40g breeders along with a denitrator. Plus I already over feed like crazy.

I would more want simplicity, wether it be by dosing pump or simply dripping phyto into both the tank and the roti's, then dripping the roti's into both the tank and the pods and so on. Yet having the drip rate be enough to dose the tank as well as maintain the cultures.

 

[ctenophors rule]

I would more want simplicity, wether it be by dosing pump or simply dripping phyto into both the tank and the roti's, then dripping the roti's into both the tank and the pods and so on. Yet having the drip rate be enough to dose the tank as well as maintain the cultures.

thats simple?

btw, on a tank that size drip rates will probably not be constant. so you will havce to have the drip valve as close to the end of the drip loop as possible to prevent the pods and rots from drying on the tube when they slip out of the drips.

 

[EnderG60]

ill rephrase that. I want something more lazy friendly. Im more then happy to over engineer things in order to be lazy.

Hmm hadnt thought of that. Perhaps aqualifters or parastaltic pumps would be a better idea then dripping....

Im basically wondering if it could be done that way, rather then having to scoop out some roti's, strain them and then put them in the tank like some of the local clown breeders do.

 

[tastydog]

Well, I wanted to report, I have what appears to be a stable Phytoplankton culture now for a month now. I haven't really used any of the phyto yet though. I am going to keep this rolling and I ordered a rotifer cyst culture from Florida-Aqua-Farms. So, I plan to feed the rotifer cultures with the phyto. Once I get that stable, I am going to feed live rotifers directly to the tank and also feed the phyto and rotifer cultures to a brine shrimp culture for a week to start. I will feed the baby brine and then slowly start getting the brine older and older before I feed them to the tank.

That is my plan anyway. I hope to reach a point where I am feeding gut loaded adult brine and baby brine every day and frozen foods for the fish every 3rd day. I will still have to feed my fresh mix of muscles, clams and shrimp to the decorative shrimp every day along with every other day coral and anemone feedings.

I will also add Fuel and eventually dose live phytoplankton to the tank.

So total food list:
Small doses of live phytoplankton, live rotifers, live adult and baby brine, fresh muscles, clams and shrimp and Seachem
Fuel as an additive.
Frozen foods, I will feed krill and mysis.
That is it!

I will keep you all updated.

Brandon

 

[mscarpena]

I think this is a bad idea. Tihnk about it I cultured phyto if you want to do a drip system you add fertilizer(aka nitrates and phosphate) then you will drip this into your system. Also rotifers themselves are not nutritious at all. Most animals can not breakdown the hard cell wall of phyto, but rotifers can. Rotifers just act as a transport for the phyto's nutrition. Also brine shrimp are really not very nutritious at all. Rotifers to get enough you need to have at a lower salinity and when you add them to your tank the salinity change kills them at higher salinity you will have low population. Baby brine shrimp are very high in fat and not a good food for the majority of fish. Also cultures of inverts are notorious for having high nutrients, nitrate, phosphate, and possible pathogens. I would actually think your idea would most likely have a negative impact on your tank. I would get a large refugium and try to grow things in there. Volcano shrimp, mysid shrimp, copepods, amphipods, and tiger pods are very easy to culture. just give them guys lots of places to hide because they will eat each other. Also there are so many types of food out there now that it should be really easy to give your fish proper nutrition.

 

[tastydog]

Thank you for your response. I do disagree though.

Tihnk about it I cultured phyto if you want to do a drip system you add fertilizer(aka nitrates and phosphate) then you will drip this into your system. ... Also cultures of inverts are notorious for having high nutrients, nitrate, phosphate, and possible pathogens. I would actually think your idea would most likely have a negative impact on your tank. ...

Although this may be true with some systems, this will not be true for this system. First of all, raw phyto additions will be rare. The dilution and procedures used produce negligible effects on nitrates and phosphates if dosed correctly. The other additions will be rotifers and brine, that have been strained and rinsed, so no bad additions to the tank. Obviously, the planned automated system would need to include a way to cleanse whatever went into the tank, (or dilute it enough). This goal may never be realized. However, it is still worth it to run the culture system and use it to feed the tank.

Also rotifers themselves are not nutritious at all. Most animals can not breakdown the hard cell wall of phyto, but rotifers can.

Zooplankton eats phytoplankton, as do the clams, the worms, the scallops, the muscles and a variety of other organisms within the tank.

Rotifers just act as a transport for the phyto's nutrition. Also brine shrimp are really not very nutritious at all. ... Baby brine shrimp are very high in fat and not a good food for the majority of fish. ...

Rotifers are eaten by coral and filter feeders like the ones above as well. Also, think about it, rotifers eat phyto, brine and copepods eats rotifers, fish eat them. Baby brine has ~18% fat content, adult brine ~11. Frozen mysis is around 8, I don't know what live mysis is but it wouldn't be far from 11, so again negligible difference. Also, the difference between brine and mysis in protein content is about 15%. Brine is cheap and easy to culture and gut load. Mysis are cannibalistic therefore hard to culture and very expensive to buy live. Also, my main goal is to feed adult brine, not baby. However, now and again I will.

Rotifers to get enough you need to have at a lower salinity and when you add them to your tank the salinity change kills them at higher salinity you will have low population.

I will have to check into this, but as far as the research I have done so far, this is of no importance.

I would get a large refugium and try to grow things in there. Volcano shrimp, mysid shrimp, copepods, amphipods, and tiger pods are very easy to culture. just give them guys lots of places to hide because they will eat each other. Also there are so many types of food out there now that it should be really easy to give your fish proper nutrition.

I already have a refugium, however, it is not conducive to raising anything but copepods, which I am currently doing. I would like to someday add to my system mysid shrimp but that is a ways away.

Regards,
Brandon