Achilles, ICH, Tank Transfer Method

[skp]

As long as you have been performing ttm right then it is just remaining trophonts jumping off the fish. They can stay on the fish for up to 7 days which you are still in.

The white spots are from when the parasites leave the fish, not new ones, just in case that helps with potential confusion.

So just keep with your plan to finish ttm and monitor for a few weeks after before putting in your DT.

Thanks for the info. I've been really careful with the water changes and the transfers but it's impossible to know 100% if I didn't accidentally contaminate the new bin.

I've read everything I could on cryptocaryon and I couldn't find out if the white spot was a part of the Ich or if it was a 'blood clot' created by the fish in response to the parasite penetrating the skin. So how does it work? The parasite enters the skin which shows no signs and then grows by feeding on the fish and then comes back out through the skin but because of the increase in size, the fish creates a blood clot to cover the opening? Or maybe the white spot is just a response when the mucous layer isn't thick enough to handle the opening because the fish is in a weakened state? Maybe this explains how an Ich population can be maintained in a system and the fish not show any spots until they are in a weakened state? Can you point me to some reference material stating that the white spot is only formed when the parasite leaves?

 

[Deinonych]

The white spot is the site of local irritation caused by the parasite being under the epidermis. It goes away once the trophont (feeding stage) leaves the fish - no more parasite, no more irritation.

 

[skp]

The white spot is the site of local irritation caused by the parasite being under the epidermis. It goes away once the trophont (feeding stage) leaves the fish - no more parasite, no more irritation.

That makes sense. So maybe when the fish are not showing any white spots it just means that they are not irritated enough by it? Im just trying to piece together all of the info I read out there with my observations as well.

Come to think of it, when the Achilles was scratching on day 5, it couldn't have been due to the Ich falling off because I read that Ich will fall off in the early morning hours. Unless this is not always the case, then I am looking at either a new infection or scratching because something about the water change irritated the already Ich infested gills. I've been doing the same water change every day with the same water but that time I dosed the prime and microbacter7 at the same time instead of several minutes apart like I was usually doing.

 

[Spar]

That makes sense. So maybe when the fish are not showing any white spots it just means that they are not irritated enough by it? Im just trying to piece together all of the info I read out there with my observations as well.

Come to think of it, when the Achilles was scratching on day 5, it couldn't have been due to the Ich falling off because I read that Ich will fall off in the early morning hours. Unless this is not always the case, then I am looking at either a new infection or scratching because something about the water change irritated the already Ich infested gills. I've been doing the same water change every day with the same water but that time I dosed the prime and microbacter7 at the same time instead of several minutes apart like I was usually doing.

falling off in the morning hours is the norm, but not the absolute. they will still jump off whenever they please. keeping in mind there are a ton of them on the fish generally.

the reason for the morning time (and by morning they are talking like around 3-5am or so), is that the fish is most likely near a hard surface such as rock or substrate, sleeping for instance, for the protomont to get to quickly and begin its encysting. if the trophont were to jump off mid-day it is more likely the fish is further into open water and the parasite may not find a suitable surface quickly enough. Of course, we are talking about in nature here, given any form of rock or substrate is close to our fish in our small environments, another reason that our infestations are exponential in a closed environment compared to nature.

 

[skp]

falling off in the morning hours is the norm, but not the absolute. they will still jump off whenever they please. keeping in mind there are a ton of them on the fish generally.

the reason for the morning time (and by morning they are talking like around 3-5am or so), is that the fish is most likely near a hard surface such as rock or substrate, sleeping for instance, for the protomont to get to quickly and begin its encysting. if the trophont were to jump off mid-day it is more likely the fish is further into open water and the parasite may not find a suitable surface quickly enough. Of course, we are talking about in nature here, given any form of rock or substrate is close to our fish in our small environments, another reason that our infestations are exponential in a closed environment compared to nature.

Thanks. I wish there were some way to know for sure if it still has Ich. It came in with a white dot which I'm positive was Ich but other than the scratching for a few hours on day five it hasn't shown any signs. It's in a 7 gallon bin and definitely stressed out but no outbreak. It's eating a little and actively swimming around but it's a grey color and hasn't changed back to the dark black color it was even when it was in the bag for over an hour. I'm not sure what is causing him to remain a light color...could it be the Ich?

 

[scooter31707]

Maybe put a bigger enough PVC piece in the container where he can swim through and feel safe and comfortable.

 

[skp]

Maybe put a bigger enough PVC piece in the container where he can swim through and feel safe and comfortable.

Thanks I'll try that. I have the entire bin (which isn't big) blocked off with boxes so it can feel like it is not in the open. It's eating right in front of me now and I think it's even used to the water changes because it doesn't swim around frantically when I'm changing the water. Could it be because of the Prime? that I'm adding? I noticed that it has a strong smell.

 

[Spar]

The smell is sulfur. Normal.

The prime would only help him if ammonia was also a problem.

More likely he is just getting used to things. Meaning good husbandry! Good job!

 

[ilikefish34]

Spar - when using prime for ammonia detoxification during TTM, do you:

Dose according to instructions?
Go a little beyond the instructions?
Or is it based on how high the ammonia levels reach?

Thus far, I haven't had any issues with my ammonia becoming problematic during the three day stretch between water changes but I've been curious about this.

 

[microlady]

Just dose the amount specified and it should be fine.

 

[skp]

Spar - when using prime for ammonia detoxification during TTM, do you:

Dose according to instructions?
Go a little beyond the instructions?
Or is it based on how high the ammonia levels reach?

Thus far, I haven't had any issues with my ammonia becoming problematic during the three day stretch between water changes but I've been curious about this.

So I've tried 1 day with no prime to see how fast the ammonia goes up. I wasn't able to test for ammonia after dosing prime. I've been changing 5 out of 6 gallons once a day just in case.

 

[skp]

Just dose the amount specified and it should be fine.

I actually change the water with 5 gallons and dose 1 ml of prime at the same time. Is this ok to 'pre-dose' Prime into water that doesn't have much ammonia yet?

 

[Spar]

I thought you actually need ammonia already present for prime to do anything. Im not sure how long the prime lasts in water with nothing to bond to.

Best just to wait until morning of day 3.

 

[skp]

I thought you actually need ammonia already present for prime to do anything. Im not sure how long the prime lasts in water with nothing to bond to.

Best just to wait until morning of day 3.

I noticed that it took under 10 hours for ammonia to rise to 0.25 in my scenario so I felt that I needed to do something about it due to the sensitive nature of the Achilles when It has Ich. Thus I wanted to make sure that there was some prime in the water for when I'm not there. Thanks for all of the help.

 

[ilikefish34]

skp - have you tested your water before adding the fish? I know that sounds odd but the calcium and magnesium gives a low level false result in some ammonia test kits... or at least that's what a chief chemist from instant ocean told me--I contacted the company because I was getting a .25 reading when just mixing salt and D.I. water. I'd test it to give yourself a baseline.

 

[skp]

skp - have you tested your water before adding the fish? I know that sounds odd but the calcium and magnesium gives a low level false result in some ammonia test kits... or at least that's what a chief chemist from instant ocean told me--I contacted the company because I was getting a .25 reading when just mixing salt and D.I. water. I'd test it to give yourself a baseline.

I thought about that and so I tested the new salt water (instant ocean) and at first it appeared like there was a tint but after the wait time for the test kit, the yellow mostly went away. There was still a slight tint but it was much less than the test of the water with the fish in it. It's hard to determine the baseline and read the offset when it comes to color but for sure it did get more yellow after 8-10 hours.

 

[skp]

How exact is 72 hours?

How exact is 72 hours?

I just realized that I was doing the transfers a few minutes past 72 hours (20 minutes at most) on a couple occasions. Should I be worried about this?

thanks

 

[microlady]

I just realized that I was doing the transfers a few minutes past 72 hours (20 minutes at most) on a couple occasions. Should I be worried about this?

thanks

Yes, I would. TTM is only successful if you get the time frame correct. Transfers must be done less than 72 hours, not over, to be on the safe side.

 

[skp]

Yes, I would. TTM is only successful if you get the time frame correct. Transfers must be done less than 72 hours, not over, to be on the safe side.

That's what I thought. Looking at my log, the second transfer was 9 minutes after the 72 hours and the third transfer was 10 minutes after the 72 hours. I should have done it well before. Next time, I'll set the time for transfer to the evening instead of so early in the morning. At this point, I think I'll just have to continue and then observe the fish in the qt. Other than the light color, it is looking and behaving like a parasite free fish.

 

[Spar]

there is actually a pretty good buffer after the 72 hours is up. missing by a couple/few hours is no big deal.

the 72 hours part is the minimum for when the tomites 'hatch'. but there is still the time period for the protomont to run around at the beginning of that time period (minimum 2 extra hours for you), and for the tomont to harden (minimum 8 extra hours for you). i.e. 82 hours is the realistic maximum between water changes required, but you don't want to edge that, hence why 72 hours is the recommended pushed time period.

i tend to use 76 hours for my personal over/under, but it is all about risk tolerance.