Acrylic fabrication questions? I can help!

[Floyd R Turbo]

My Dad uses a Bench Jointer for trimming 1/32" off all his edges before bonding. He only builds stands and cases though.

I have seen references stating to trim 1/16" off and do 3 passes (for a total of 3/16") for any edge before bonding. Is there a reason for trimming off that much material?

Also, for a standard off-the-shelf bench top jointer like a Porter Cable one from Lowe's for $250, do the blades need to be replaced with one specifically for Acrylic, or are those fine?

 

[Acrylics]

My Dad uses a Bench Jointer for trimming 1/32" off all his edges before bonding. He only builds stands and cases though.

I have seen references stating to trim 1/16" off and do 3 passes (for a total of 3/16") for any edge before bonding. Is there a reason for trimming off that much material?

No.. From what I can tell, it's because most folks think that a good blade = blade with lotsa teeth. If the teeth are not ground correctly - it'll still chip. And it's these chips that we're trying to get rid of. Use a correctly ground blade and 1/32-1/16" is all that is required to remove the saw marks and leave a gluable edge.

Also, for a standard off-the-shelf bench top jointer like a Porter Cable one from Lowe's for $250, do the blades need to be replaced with one specifically for Acrylic, or are those fine?

I tend to think the blades it comes with should be fine. But, I really couldn't tell you; I'm of the opinion that jointers are about worthless. There's nothing a jointer can do that a decent router table can't do much better. And there's lotsa things a decent router table can do that a jointer doesn't have a chance at doing. So router table is in, jointer is out..again JMO

James

 

[DustinB]

+1 on the router table. I happen to have a jointer, but before I found a deal on one I was using the router table with an adjustable outfeed fence.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

The key here is "decent". I have built several filter boxes and sump parts, and have learned lessons from making these, but I have learn a great deal more from this thread so far. I am reading it from "the" beginning, way back from when Acrylicman started it. So far I'm up to Page 40 (almost to post 1000 still back in 2004!!) and no pictures in the archive, so I'm just absorbing and picturing everything in my head.

Anyways, these filter boxes are generally small (24" L x 3" W x 6-9" H) and I've managed to build them to be watertight (though they never really are full) even with absolutely despicable looking seams made with WO #3 and not oversizing and flush trimming, and not using pins method.

I have had several requests for making boxes, a few frag tanks, and sumps. So it looks like I will eventually build my own router table (probably a couple after all is said and done), for right now I have a Ryobi table saw from HD (and it is a piece of junk, and I plan to exchange for a Rigid) and a Diablo plastic blade, I have an (unopened) Ryobi router table/router combo, which will be going back to HD as my Dad has it, and it is a piece of junk.

So for a start, the small boxes I want to make would probably mandate a laminate router and just handheld trimming. The boxes are going to be 1/4" and I'm thinking that since it's a negligible price difference (to me) to use cast vs extruded, and the end product will be higher quality, that's what I'm going with.

Though the table saw I have is junk, it does the trick for now. I'll upgrade soon.

So I'm stuck with how to trim the edges to prep for bonding. Since I'm not dealing with large pieces and assemblies, I'm thinking that instead of buying a laminate router, I should get a decent stock router table and a decent router. I saw this one the other day for under $200

http://www.lowes.com/pd_131779-353-...|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&facetInfo=Bosch

And their router with the 1/2" collet for $209

http://www.lowes.com/pd_136633-353-...|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&facetInfo=Bosch

or i could probably get the DeWalt for about the same price, or the Porter-Cable for $140

http://www.lowes.com/pd_77344-70-96..._prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1

That one has both collets, 1/2 and 1/4 don't know how that is but since I have a few bits already, that might be good.

So this way I could start small. Anyone see any problems with using a smaller router table like the Bosch one? That one was really the only one that I've seen that looked worth a %$#@ in HD or Lowe's. There is a woodworking store in town that sells really, really nice looking ones for several hundred $ but for that price I'd get a big piece of laminated particle board and some 3" steel tubing and build a big one myself.

 

[Acrylics]

The key here is "decent"....<snip>...but for that price I'd get a big piece of laminated particle board and some 3" steel tubing and build a big one myself.

now you're talking
FWIW, I've never seen a pre-built router table that's worth anything. IMO, build it yourself. Some steel square tube, 2 sheets of particle board, and a sheet of polished Formica.. do it right and you'll have a router table better than anything on the market, period.

James

 

[stocker]

James,
Do you know of a good websight that has plans to this router table that you speak about? I'm thinking of building one. I can build anything by using plans. Just not that good at "winging it".
Thanks

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Same here. I think with enough searching (rockler sells plans) I could find one, and the local woodworking store has the pre-built ones that I could mimic. Still debating on buying the Bosch one and using it for a while until I can build my own. I suppose I can always sell it or return it. Home Depot has an extremely liberal return policy, I think Lowe's might also...

 

[LSBoogie]

Basic of basic questions here (sorry in advance). I'm currently looking a purchasing a 48x20x16 acrylic sump without any baffles in it. Sump was used in a fish store prior and has been sitting empty for apx 3 years. I would like to add baffles to it. Questions are: What do I look for to make sure its still in useable shape? (I know about crazing and cracking but is there anything else to look for). Is it a bad idea to try to add new baffles to an old tank? Any general tips you can give me so I don't f this up beyond all use?

Thanks in Advance and again, I apologize.

 

[madmike]

I have seen james router table, it is just two pieces of 3/4" mdf glued together to form a 1&1/2 piece. This is placed on a steel base and now you have a table. He mounts the router underneath the table and covers the top with a piece of polished formica so the pieces slide easily accross the table, especially after waxing them.

Check this thread out, there are pictures of his tables
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=390652

Having used the same type of setup I can tell you to NOT skip the polished formica on top! I used the melamine white coated mdf that has a texture to it and it "grabs" the edges of the paper on acrylic and makes it harder to work with.

 

[Acrylics]

yup, pretty simple With the right fences and knowing how to place them - can do quite a bit with it. From spinning 5'+ circles to routing any angle you wish, shaping, edge jointing, blah blah
The polished Formica is a big help, spend the extra $30 if that's what it takes. You'll thank yourself later

..and FWIW, the one in the pics is 5 x 10'.. just for scale

thanks Mike :wave:

James

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

James,

I just got off the phone with a guy from Laird in Kansas City. We had a good long conversation about the acrylics industry and how it is being affected by the current economy / world 'game' going on. He told me that Cyro and a few others have declared "force majeure" since China and Saudia Arabia and sucking up all the supplies and the resin or another component is shorted, and now the prices are going up something like 10% every 6 months.

Also, Polycast has taken a hit because the airline industry has slowed so drastically that fewer places stock it anymore.

He questioned why the preference 1) Polycast 2) Acrylite GP 3) Plexiglas G. I didn't really have a good answer for him. What is your reasoning?

He seemed to think that Polycast had done a good job of getting certified in smaller markets and making themselves the product of choice.

He mentioned that in his 15+ years of working for Laird and Regal before that, he sold a ton of Plex-G to aquarium builders, but he admitted that most of it was in Florida 10 years ago.

Right now he gets Plex-G by the truckload at a good price. I've been searching Minneapolis and KC for good prices, I found 3/8" polycast in MN for about $200/sheet and 1/2" for $323, then Acrylite GP (China) 1/4" for $135. I've found Plex-G for about $135 a sheet for 1/4" also and not sure on 3/8" of 1/2" but I'm not needing that, at least not right away.

Apparently the move to China for Acrylite happened about 2 years ago. Any opinion of go/no go for the China product?

 

[madmike]

thanks Mike

No problem man... I couldn't have finished all of my projects without learning the tricks of the trade,

BTW I saw the tank over at West side, pretty impressive!

Just for kicks... what size acrylic would you recommend for a 192" x 48" deep x 20" tall ? Would be the same design as my current setup, euro and crossbraces every 4 feet or so.

 

[Acrylics]

James,

I just got off the phone with a guy from Laird in Kansas City. We had a good long conversation about the acrylics industry and how it is being affected by the current economy / world 'game' going on. He told me that Cyro and a few others have declared "force majeure" since China and Saudia Arabia and sucking up all the supplies and the resin or another component is shorted, and now the prices are going up something like 10% every 6 months.

Sounds about right, was worse in '08 and beginning of '09 though; 8-15% every 90 days.
The key shortage has been in acetone. Price got run up in the housing boom, then oil boom, and pricing has not come down since, just had another 8% hike last month. Acrylic pricing itself out of certain markets is a real concern at this point, and everyone in the industry is well aware of it. It has been bad, but it could get real ugly in the next coupla years if things don't change.

Also, Polycast has taken a hit because the airline industry has slowed so drastically that fewer places stock it anymore.

I tend to doubt this; few places holding stock because of 3 specific branches? maybe those 3. Polycast as a whole may have taken a hit, but whether my branch stocks it or not has nothing to do with the airline industry. It has to do with me.
Polycast costs more than any other brand. When money is tight, people will cut back and use cheaper materials.

He questioned why the preference 1) Polycast 2) Acrylite GP 3) Plexiglas G. I didn't really have a good answer for him. What is your reasoning?

Polycast is full gauge, no other brand is. Polycasts mole wt is more consistent than any other brand in my experience, this makes for more consistent gluing. These are my two top priorities, hence my preference for Polycast #1 despite being the most expensive on average.
Between the other 2, it's pretty much a toss up; Plex-Glas is cheaper but Acrylite has more sheet color, size, and thickness selection. IMO sheet selection gets preference over price.
Price is of very little concern to me though for these things.

Apparently the move to China for Acrylite happened about 2 years ago. Any opinion of go/no go for the China product?

It started phasing in then, starting with *some* 4x8' sheets of 1/4" - I posted on this some time ago. Thicker materials and "oversized" 1/4" stayed here 'til the end of last year, but even then - US made 1/4" 4 x 8' sheets were still available.

My understanding is that the material is to be the same, but the paper has changed. I give them the benefit of the doubt as I've no reason to believe any different. I haven't played with the new stuff, really have no reason to use it, so can't make any educated comments.

James

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

James thank you very much again. I am constrained by the fact that since I don't have a high need for stock at this point, I have to find a place that has what I want, and then drive there to pick it up. Right now that's my problem. The place in MN stocks for a tank builder outside of the Twin Cities so he has Polycast, but not 1/4". Another place carries clear Acrylite GP in 1/4" but no black. Another place carries Plex-G in black. A place in KC can get 1/4" Plex G but has to be shipped from another location to them. I'm having a hard time finding ONE place that has a selection of what I need!!! Top that with having to get the MC and AA from Omaha, but now KC may have it since they have a lot of chemical demand. I'm pulling my hair out man! Hopefully I can find it all in MN 'cause I'm going up there this weekend.

Would there be any problems when solvent welding materials from different manufacturers? Like if I made a frag tank from 3/8" Polycast, but made an internal overflow w/teeth out of black Plex-G, or made a tank with a black/blue back with the same mix, etc?

 

[Acrylics]

Provided you stick with good materials, feel free to mix them. You can also mix cast acrylic and extruded and continuous cast if you want.

As for getting materials in one place; once you start buying enough, they'll cater to you and keep the stuff on the floor for you just to keep the business

James

 

[theoblakereport]

I've been planning my build for awhile now and have just found and read through much of this, and am very interested in acrylic vs. glass (my present plan). 60x48x25t is my footprint, is 3/4" plus euro 3"? plus 2 x 5" cross members a solid construction for this, alternatively, 1/2" with full top and cut-outs? I've built a few acrylic sumps before, all 1/4" and enjoyed it. Weight and being able to do this build alone (mostly) is a factor for me.

Additionally, would an external overflow change the thickness need?

Thank you

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have a question about sumps. After messing around with materials and techniques to get some 'training', I plan to build a sump. The sump I want to build will be maximum 48" long, at least 14" tall (one chamber will have 13" of water in it) and no more than 14" wide. This will have several baffles for different purposes. If I make it out of all Plex-G material, what thickness should I use?

I read a post that James says he uses nothing less than 1/2" for an aquarium application. But I've seen plenty of sumps made buy the big companies that look like they're using 3/16" or 1/4" at best for a 35 gallon size, granted that the cutouts are relatively small. I've also seen an open-top sump made from pretty thin material (another big company sump).

My gut tells me that if I use 3/8" material for the box, and 1/4" (cast) for the baffles, that's going to be plenty good, since there will be lots of internal bracing. But would I be able to get away with 1/4" all around?

I suppose it would depend on the maximum chanber size and the talles height of baffle. So let's say for argument's sake: maximum chamber width of 24" right in the middle and a series of up/downs on either side extending all the way to the top and bottom of the tank, with a top brace with cutouts, crossbars corresponding to the up/down locations and bonded to the up/down.

Now, if I wanted to go with no top (or only a eurobrace w/no crossbars), is that going to mandate 3/8" minimum?

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[henrystyle]

Sounds like a plan. You may get away with 3/8" but it better be put together tight. You always want to put a euro brace for the added protect especially if your using 3/8". I made my sump out of 1/4" and its fine. (But I have experience building with acrylic) Wouldnt recommend doing it if its your first build. With no brace it will bow. Not what you want.. Euro brace is the way to go..(a must)

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yeah I was playing around with the Cyro calculator and 48 x 14 w/ top brace said use 0.354 so I figure that's safe for sure. Figure in their formula overcompensates (probably for liability) I *could* get away with 1/4", but yeah since this would (eventually) be my first large build, better to be safe. The material is 60% more but not the place to skimp, right?

 

[henrystyle]

Acrylic is expensive as hell these days. You better know what your doing or that will be money down the drain...