Adding more nutrients to a nutrient lacking system?

[ADHybrid]

My tank was lacking nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia and it was showing in my algae. Since all that is present in the tank is a mantis shrimp (which I'm sure gives off some nutrients through feeding/deficating/etc) I have been purposly dumping large amounts of food into the tank to produce more of these nutrients and have noticed positive results with my algae but I dont feel this is safe in the long run (for my macro and for my mantis). Is their a way to add nutrients to my system WITHOUT purposly overfeeding?

 

[Beruka]

I don't think this is a difficult question, but it is goes against notion that running system nutrient limited is best.

I once purposely over fed my mature system with Cyclops, Artemia, squid ect for several weeks to see which micro algaes would start to come back.. Some tough spot film algaes which were a little tougher to wipe off came back but nothing else apeared.

With this perceived overfeeding, organic nutrients reaching the algae were likely nothing highly unusual, but the approach is black magic like in the early days of growing freshwater aquatic plants. Hold your breath and hope your microcosm balances itself.

Digressing further, some old FW plants say all that is need to grow plants is bright light. Someone then found overstocking guppies also help. Then so did natural clay muds from amazonian banks (laterite clays). The guppies were thern replaced with mechanical co2 generators, and people made micronutrient recipes at 100% markup.

So today FW plants are grown with Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, and a little iron or laterite in a more controlled way with 99% success rate <<if done properly.>>

Now you have found overfeeding increase your sw macro algaes. Try replacing feedings with daily doses of NaNO3, or Potassium Nitrate.

Will the plant grow faster? What else happens in the tank, do other algaes appear? Does Iron/iodine help? What else happens? Is it phosphorus limited? HERACY!!

I don't really know all the anwsers but would sugest keeping nitrate levels at a constant 2-4 ppm, by use of a NaNO3/KNO3 salt mix. Iron and Iodide can be used very sparingly in this same mix such as 1ppm in dosing solution itself. You are bound to microalgae blooms until the recipe is finetuned.

I use a 250 watt over a 20 gallon sump with high current. I have seen if fade from lack on nutrients while many others have reported continuos growth.

 

[Plantbrain]

The major problem with adding food, more fish etc is rather simple but difficult to test for since it gets cycled into the system too fast to get any good measurements on it with hobby test kits and approaches.

NH4+ is produced first when you add too many fish/food.

Then maybe NO3 later in the filter etc.

NH4 is ripe nasty algae food. It is very easy for this algae to meet it's N needs using this N source.

NO3 take a fair amount of energy and is more suited to large plants/macro algae. Miocro algae do not have as much reserves and therefore are more competitive when NH4 is present rather than NO3. You can find numerous example sof this in the research literature on competition and is classic marine Bio competition study taught at most marine bio programs across the US.

It's unlikely there's a K+ limited marine tank but it will not hurt(say the extra K from KNO3)

PO4 is likely not quite limiting, but marine tanks need much less and respond differently than FW tanks.

you can obtain KNO3, KH2PO4 etc atr www.litemanu.com

Or get some KNO3, (stump remover) at hardware or nurseries, Fleet enema works also for PO4=> sodium phosphate. Maybe 1 or 1/2 drop in a 20 gal but that may cause some diatom blooms on the glass(not on the plants).

POtash of sulfur is K2SO4 if you want to play with K+ only.

Dosing KNO3, perhaps 1/8 teaspoon 1-2x a week.

Use a Lamott test kit for NO3, I have tried many NO3 test kits and this is about the only that seems to match up with known standard solutions.

A key point if you want to figure out how much NO3 is really there.

If you want to play with NH4+, use ammonium sulfate.

You can test the effects well using these salts.

For Ca and Mg, MgSO4 Epsom slat, and CaCl2 can be found in pool supply places.
This dissolves fast and can raise the Ca levels also(no effect on alkalinity).
though, baking soda will help if Kalk is out or CO2 + CaCO3 is out also).

I'm going to be adding CO2 to my tank soon.

For the plants, not enough to roast CaCO3 etc.

Let me try this, don't try this.
I've used CO2 for a long time for marine micro algae cultures.

If it works well, I'll let folks know.

I have a feeling it will but want to see how other things respond.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[ADHybrid]

Thanks for the reply guys!! Well, here is the results of my "overfeeding" incedent. Everything looks GREAT!! Red plants are deep red again (they were turning green and dying) I've got noticable growth in my caulerpa, my halimedia is growing new "coins" every day. I did a lil research and like you guys said, Ammonia seems to be the easiest form of nitrogen for algae to utilize. I noticed the BIGGEST recovery, per say, after the very first day of the food storm (which is when I figure ammonia was at its highest) I have been dosing Chelated Iron also, but like I said, the noticable difference was after the food storm. I guess I'm going to play around with some nutrients and see what I can get, cuz heck, experimenting is like 98% of the fun. Oh, forgot to mention, I've been dumping trace element blocks (sea-lab No-28) but not religiously. Basically, I got these things for dirt cheap and have been tossing a few into my tank every once in a while. As soon as I can get some of the other chems. mentioned here and get them in the right concentrations to dose, I'll start keeping better track of what I dose, add, etc. Keep the info coming guys.

 

[Plantbrain]

Be careful not to go overboard.

Feeding a bit more is one thing.

Adding KNO3 is good also and will likely be the preferred method for those wanting a planted Marine tank or needing to improve a unhealthy refugium.

If you wipe out your tank, you'll be ****ed, I have a lot of experience with this and good test kits, let me fry things first. You will do this at your own risk. My ideas are just that, mine, you try at your own risk.

Trying a "spike method" is a good way to see how things go (say just one spike a week).
Mega dosing right before a large water change is also another method I employ. I also am extremely good at picking off pesky algae and I also do not have any corals or critters except 3 fish that are very tough.

I would never add inorganic NH4 sources to any tank except to show someone that is causes nasty algae. Food and fish loads can only add so much, after that you need to add KNO3.

The system becomes way to sensitive to changes the more fish/critters you add and food.

Just keep a very close eye on things. Plan on water changes(40-70%) if things do not look good/kicking the skimmer on full blast etc.

I really do not how far I can push and this makes me leary when folks start tossing in whatever thinking it's all peachy.

Eventually it will not be hard I believe in the future buit we have a long way to go here before we know just how far and what we can push.

Get good kits(eg Lamott) and the chemicals if you want to try this.
Also Ca and alkalinity!

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[ADHybrid]

)Thanks for the heads up Tom,

No worries though, 5 years of reefkeeping has me prepared for the worst so I'm constantly ready in case of an emergency ( several 5 gallon jugs of both salt and R.O. water, spare lighting, spare skimmer, several spare H.O.B's, several cartons of Carbon, 3 or 4 Polyfilters, testkits up the wazoo, etc ) I''ll be taking a more scientific aproach to this aquarium than I do with my reef aquariums however. A log book will be kept with dosing schedules, observations, and any other data relevant to the aquarium's progress. I picked up some KNO3 today (green light stump remover) that I heard was pretty pure (almost no binders). I have access to lab-grade KNO3 but that is just WAY to expensive right now. I'll post the concentrations I'll be using in a while, but right now, I got an essay I need to finish. Finals suck :mad2: !!!


-Chris

 

[Plantbrain]

Oh I just love finals

Try 1/8 th teaspoon 2x a week of the Green light if it's heavily planted for each 35 gallon of water.

This adds 3.3ppm or so of NO3 and 2ppm of K for each dose.
Scale up to whatver water __volume__(not tank size)

FW plants use more likely and their quota is around 3 ppm per day max uptake rate. So if the macro can make it longer than a 2-3 days without another source, it's likely enough and then some is supplied via the fish food etc.

So that should be enough to get the plants through a week routine without much build up.

Water change re sets the nutrient levels since it is almost like a reference solution, because yoyu can make a tank to within close to 1 ppm of NO3 using the teaspoon method which is very easy.

Add iron also during this time.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Beruka]

AdHybrid & Plantbrain,

I have a useful tip but don't want to give the impression there is not a better or cheaper way. Big Als Online sells Eheim Liquidosers the cheapest. It is a useful tool in that I am very busy at work and do not always get to dosing the nutrients daily.

Daily dosing will always be better done on a daily basis than weekly up and down swings. I really fine tuned my tank with this device, and eliminated some nucance algae problems.

Its helpful in that it is more disciplined than me, and don't change its formula mid-stream like I am sure to do.

CO2 addition sounds risky, but probably OK. I am willing to tryverify some of your techniques if you care to let me. I have several that work but I can not say I have been really successful.

Beruka

 

[ADHybrid]

Beruka,

Good tip, but I'd rather dose every day by hand than have an auto-doser do it. There are several reasons for this:

1. I'm going to be keeping track of what EXACTLY goes in the auquarium and when (it will be so much easier if I actually put it in than to figure out how much the auto-doser dripped in, how many ppm nutrients that would be, etc.)

2. When I dose, i want to be able to see any change that might be a result of it. If I'm auto-dosing, I will probably get lazy and slack off on my observations.

3. I'm a poor college kid, the less money I can spend, the better.

4. Dosing and testing is all part of the fun in keeping aquariums.



-Chris

 

[Plantbrain]

I don't think you'll find a difference betweem dosing 2x a week vs daily.

Some folks believe the least possible is the best.
I do not think so. There's a range and I'd rather be after dosing on the higher side.

This is not because of algae but rather the plant's/macro's health.

I think folks really sometimes do not get this part.
You want to grow plants/macro's so focus on their needs, watch them and see what makes them thrive.

Don't worry about the other algae. They don't grow well when the macro's/plants are.

I've done enough with the PO4. I will say do not add it, even if the tank is packed. If you add a very small amount to a large tank with good growth, that might be alright, but even at 0.2ppm spikes after over aweek, I still have gotten negative responses from some plants/macro's.

I also get diatoms all over the glass etc. But the plants, especially Caulerpas do not seem to like it. The Daysa also lost fine hairs.
I can see new ones growing back, but it is not something I plan on working with.

There was plenty of NO3, iron/traces, Ca/Alka etc so I know that nothing obivious was limiting macro/plant growth except PO4.

This is why I am taking the CO2 step.
It's all about the plant/macro.

If we stropped right now producing CO2 switched to solar etc, clean up everything, we'd still have 2x the CO2 level in the sea, and if we burnt all the fossil fuels there are, about 6X, you could bubble air into a FW tank have about 25ppm of CO2 in solution.

I think the model suggested about a pH of 7.7 or so for medium fossil fuel range use.

The sea will tritrate the CO2 in the air and buffer it, but it'll take a few thousand years and about 1-2 million to get things below 400ppm in the air.

Well, the plants will grow well in some area if there's water.
But it's going to be hot.....

I am curious as to the effective range of NO3 and the iron proxy for traces.

Ca/Mg/Alka can be added to excess, but the NO3/iron seem to be the large controlling parameters.

I am interested in adding something else to enhance growth that might be missing in a small densely planted tank.

I know many plants can use HCO3, and this is the primary Carbon source for the marine plants, but they can and some do grow better with CO2 enrichment.

I'll find out soon enough.

At least for now, I'm sure folks generally do not want to play with PO4 even if the tank is doing well and there's no/not much PO4 present.

Just stick with the food as being the input source.
I'll work on the CO2 and NO3 next.
Then go back and re evaluate iron/traces.

Then maybe, I might play with a diluted PO4 source.
I know I cannot "power through" the PO4 from early test.


As far as dosing pumps, they are nice for those that forget. I'm not really impressed with that Ehiem thing and there are simple methiods of DIY dosing devices with timers to move the dosing liquids/dry powder or you can use an IV drip etc. Or add the dosing liquid to the Reservoir make up water like Kalk etc.

You can also make those automatic gravity feed type of auto top off with no moving parts, justv as the sump or tank levels drop, a bubble is able to release the water till the sump or tank ios raised up to that level.

Hard to explain verbally but you all know what it is.

Regards,
Tom Barr






Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Plantbrain]

Another concept:

If you accept a PO4 limited system, then you cannot have two simultaneous limiting nutrients.

So there should be a large workable range for the NO3, Iron etc.
You can push these a ways, but they can destasbilize things at high levels, regardless of low PO4.

But these ranges should be relatively robust.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Beruka]

I have found a big difference between dosing weekly and dosing daily. Specifically a type of long threadlike algae appeared when iron was dosed weekly and dissapeared when the same weekly amount was dosed in 1/7 intervals. It could be argued another variable was out to cause this event, such as NO3 / Iron input did not match, but that will always be the case. It is just easier to balance with daily dosing intervals.

I agree the Eheim Liquidoser is not the best device but are you suggesting dosing based on variable evaporation rates is better? It would certainly be more error prone. I think drip dispensers are mostly useless unless they are of medical grade quality and then are very expensive as well.

Do you remeber the base camp lake at Mt St Helens? It was destroyed by the volcano during an erruption. Scientists in the mid 80's estimated is take 3-4 hundred years to regain the healthy status of nearby lakes. The lake was polluted with sulfurs,co2, tubulence, and heat. Fish were back in the lake in 4-5 years. In ten years time the lake had essentially the same biodiversity. Sulfur eating bacteria bloomed during the supply and then dwindled.

CO2 will not titrate the ocean. A liquid phase gas exhange will take place limited by solubility level as much as surface area.

Carbon dioxide today is 350 parts per million (ppm) or .035 percent ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ compared to 270 ppm before industrialization. 1.4 billion years ago, CO2 was more than 10 to 200 times today's level. Several large volcanic eruptions can easily match this amount.

So if 6X is correct, then 70 ppm (30% increase) X 6 = 270 + 420 = 690 ppm.
So 1-2 million years to go back below 400 ppm is just silly.