AFCI breaker tripping when I install GFCI receptacle

[EvMiBo]

Hope this is the correct forum to post this in...
Disclaimer: Electricity isn't my strongest field, that being said I'm trying to stay safe.

I've read that AFCI breakers can trip from complex loads. But, it's never happened to me before until this house. Also, the breaker was tripping before anything was plugged into the GFCI receptacle. We bought the house a year ago, built in 1959, but the breaker and wiring (besides some two prong receptacles initially) were up to date. For now, I installed this on a new three prong outlet. I used it before in my apartment but would like a GFCI receptacle. It's strange to me that the AFCI doesn't trip with that but does with a GFCI receptacle, makes me wonder if it's even protecting me.

Is there something Arcing???

Finally, and what got me off my butt to fix the receptacle issue hopefully... I noticed (because of small cut on my finger) recently that there's electricity in the water. Voltage I guess would be the right term. I did some searching about stray voltage and tested the water with a multimeter. My test came out to 29.5 volts (black cord into the ground, red into the tank, while plugged into a separate outlet). Furthermore, it doesn't seem to be one pump, it seems that everything leaks a little voltage (2-6 volts). "Stray Voltage" seems like it's a touchy subject but I would like to discuss it to help fix the issues I'm having.

 

[gbru316]

FWIW, The mere flow of water through pipes is enough to build up charge. Voltage is a measurement of potential energy. It isn't until a path to ground is created that this energy turns kinetic. Our bodies also have varying levels of charge. When we touch something with a different charge, we feel the flow of electricity as the two different potentials equalize. This is why we experience static electrocoty. As long as no path to ground is present (or no continuous current source) this balancing isn't an issue. Birds can land on power lines because they don't provide a path to ground. Not because of insulation (as electricity in the kilovolt range present on power lines does energize the air surrounding the lines). However, a faulty component that is providing a continuous current could be a safety issue.

 

[EvMiBo]

So, should I be measuring current then?

Any idea on why the breaker would be tripping?

 

[sleepydoc]

AFCI breakers are notoriously flaky. Have you tried the adaptor in other outlets on either the same circuit or other circuits in the house? I had a AFCI breaker that started tripping when my pump would start up, so I had to replace the breaker (only 3 years old.)

It's also possible that the GFI adapter is detecting a fault and something in the circuitry is creating a signal that the AFCI breaker interprets as arcing, but if it's tripping before you even plug anything into the adaptor, I would wonder if the adaptor is faulty. Personally, I would just get a regular GFI outlet, rather than deal with an adaptor.

 

[EvMiBo]

Okay I feel a bit silly now... The breaker is actually a standard breaker, not AFCI. For some reason I thought there was only AFCI and GFCI breakers, apparently there's "standard" too, woops.

The breaker was tripping when I installed a GFCI outlet/receptacle. It would instantly trip when I turned the breaker back on after installing the GFCI outlet.

It's not tripping with the 3 prong outlet I installed (that the adapter is plugged into).

I'd like to be able to use a regular gfci outlet and not depend on the adapter.

 

[uncleof6]

Okay I feel a bit silly now... The breaker is actually a standard breaker, not AFCI. For some reason I thought there was only AFCI and GFCI breakers, apparently there's "standard" too, woops.

The breaker was tripping when I installed a GFCI outlet/receptacle. It would instantly trip when I turned the breaker back on after installing the GFCI outlet.

It's not tripping with the 3 prong outlet I installed (that the adapter is plugged into).

I'd like to be able to use a regular gfci outlet and not depend on the adapter.

Really tight fit getting the GFI back in the box? If so, I bet it's a pinched wire shorting to ground. Or the bare ground wire is making contact with the hot wire (line) connection. Very common...

The breaker in the main panel only trips in certain circumstances. Either the circuit is overloaded, or there is a short in the wiring either from hot to ground, or hot to neutral. Since there is no load on the circuit when the breaker trips, the circuit cannot be overloaded. Rule that out. That leaves a direct short as the culprit.

If the GFCI was shorting internally, it would smoke the GFCI, so that can be ruled out. That leaves the wiring in the box. Either hot to ground, or hot to neutral. Since it does not occur with a regular outlet, it is fairly reasonable to assume that it is "bad makeup," due to the large size of GFCI recepticles. A bare wire is touching something it shouldn't, or just as common, but hard to detect, is a nicked wire touching something it shouldn't.

Though it would be hard to make the next mistake, I have seen it happen, becasue GFCI recepticles do not wire up the same as standard recepticles. The hot wire is connected to the line side hot, and the neutral is connected to the load side hot, or similarly on the neutral side of the GFCI. Direct hot to neutral short. Getting the line and load (the screws with yellow tape on them) mixed up would not cause the breaker to trip, however the GFCI would not work.

Since there is no AFCI in the circuit, you should be able to sort it out without too much trouble. There is no mystery to it, really.

 

[EvMiBo]

First, I always look forward to your responses, uncleof6 - they've always been extremely helpful, I appreciate it!

Yes, it was a very tight fit with the GFCI receptacle and iirc the wires had less room than the standard 3 prong receptacle. The hot was probably touching something it's not supposed to... If it's something as simple as that I'm very happy

I will have another go at it and might just end up getting the drywall saw out, and purchasing a larger box of sorts.

Looks like I'll have to temporarily wire the aquarium across the living room into the kitchen via extension cords.

Though it would be hard to make the next mistake, I have seen it happen, becasue GFCI recepticles do not wire up the same as standard recepticles. The hot wire is connected to the line side hot, and the neutral is connected to the load side hot, or similarly on the neutral side of the GFCI. Direct hot to neutral short. Getting the line and load (the screws with yellow tape on them) mixed up would not cause the breaker to trip, however the GFCI would not work.

I'm 99% sure everything thing was connected to where it needed to be. I really think the hot was touching something it shouldn't be the more I think of how tight everything was.

 

[Space heater]

Is this a metal box? I only ask because my house (that I had to rewire) was built around the same time had metal gangboxes that were significantly smaller than even the current single gangs. I tried to install GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bath when I first bought it but I had the same issue. There just wasn't enough space in them and after many frustrating attempts to graft thhn with wire nuts and wrap everything in electrical tape I just gave up. When I remodeled I used modern plastic boxes and insulated grounds, made the job much easier, not that that will help you much. However, if you're willing to cut a bit of sheetrock you can put in a plastic gangbox that'll have more than enough space.

 

[sleepydoc]

Really tight fit getting the GFI back in the box? If so, I bet it's a pinched wire shorting to ground. Or the bare ground wire is making contact with the hot wire (line) connection. Very common...

+ 1
Most houses of that era have metal boxes and metal conduit. Many times, GFI outlets are a tight fit in them, especially if they are marginally sized to begin with. I just got done installing some GFIs in my parents' mid-60's house and had this problem.

Start by turning the breaker off, opening the box and pulling the GFI outlet out. If you see signs of arcing, that's probably you answer right there. Either way, you can visually verify that the hot wire(s) are not touching anything they're not supposed to and verify that you installed it correctly. Now turn the breaker on. If it trips, you probably have either a bad outlet, or you have a short some place else.

 

[zachts]

First, I always look forward to your responses, uncleof6 - they've always been extremely helpful, I appreciate it!

Yes, it was a very tight fit with the GFCI receptacle and iirc the wires had less room than the standard 3 prong receptacle. The hot was probably touching something it's not supposed to... If it's something as simple as that I'm very happy

I will have another go at it and might just end up getting the drywall saw out, and purchasing a larger box of sorts.

Looks like I'll have to temporarily wire the aquarium across the living room into the kitchen via extension cords.



I'm 99% sure everything thing was connected to where it needed to be. I really think the hot was touching something it shouldn't be the more I think of how tight everything was.

When you put everything back in wrap the sides and back of the receptacle and contacts in electrical tape to cover any exposed metal wire and contacts on the receptacle. Then be careful to tuck wires back in as you go so they do not pinch between the box and receptacle. If there are other circuits tied in at the back of the box be mindful of any bare grounds that are twisted together, they can have very sharp edges and may poke thru the insulation on other wires when everything is forced back in the box. covering such connections with a wire nut is a very good idea but that will of course take up more space in the box......

They also make stand off covers that can be installed on the box to make the receptacle stick out from the wall and give you more room to work with. Consult an electrician though to make sure that would be allowable in your situation.