Aggressive firefish? QT problem

[Flashy Fins]

Last Wednesday, I purchased a purple firefish and a blue flasher wrasse. I placed both in one of two rubbermaid bins I'm using for tank transfer before they go into my cycled QT. Each bin has its own equipment and ammonia badge, and I'm using Prime each day, just in case. There are pvc pipes for hiding, one for each fish on opposite ends of the bin.

Both fish acted normally during their first 3 days, eating fine and seemingly getting along fine. The first night, they even huddled together till they got used to their new surroundings. Saturday morning, they were transferred to the second bin with clean water of the same temp and salinity. The wrasse seemed to deal with the transfer poorly, lying on his side for hours afterward and hiding by the heater. Since I'd seen him swimming around just fine literally right before the transfer, I figured it was temporary and he would perk up by evening.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen, and while I was siphoning out some poop, I noticed he was breathing very heavily and lying upside down. I removed the lid from the bin to get a better look and he started going crazy, repeatedly flipping up and shooting out of the water in an attempt to carpet surf. I was able to prevent that from happening, but I knew something was wrong.

Ammonia tested 0 and the firefish seemed fine, so I started researching what could be wrong with the wrasse. While searching the internet, I occasionally glanced over to confirm the wrasse was still breathing. Soon, I started noticing the firefish hovering near the wrasse, even cornering him at one point. The wrasse wasn't reacting to this, so I got nervous he was very near death or dead and had another good look. That's when I saw it...

His tail! I can assure you, this wrasse had a perfectly intact, full tail just 4 days ago. So, did the firefish take a chunk off, or did the heater burn him? I have trouble believing a firefish could be so aggressive, or that a fish would continue to lie by a heater that was burning him, but I don't know what else could've happened to him. The missing chunk is not floating around in the water that I can see. I now recall seeing the firefish bumping into the wrasse when I was feeding one day, something I dismissed as accidental at the time. It's only a firefish, after all. Now, I'm not so sure...

If the wrasse makes it through the night, I will start antibiotics, but I am not optimistic. I am considering returning the firefish if the store will take it back for credit. If he is a freak who defies their usual peaceful temperament, I don't want to find out with another fish. Still, is this even possible? A murderous firefish? I just can't wrap my head around it.

Ironically, it was just Friday that I was sharing the warning I received that firefish are very aggressive in the "bad LFS advice" thread. :worried:

 

[snorvich]

Firefish are not aggressive (except with other firefish after establishing a territory) and it did not take off the tail of the flasher wrasse.

 

[Flashy Fins]

Any other ideas? Could the heater have done this? Disease?

I was rather tired and upset at 2 in the morning when I typed my post, but in the light of day, I agree an aggresive firefish is not my problem. I just can't figure out what caused this perfect fish to go downhill so fast. I wish I knew when the tail damage appeared, but I don't. I only know he was perfect looking on Wednesday and swam around and ate normally until the tank transfer Saturday morning.

I would appreciate any insight anyone has. The fish is still alive, but is still lying on his side and breathing heavily. He has moved from the spot he was in when I went to bed last night, at least. I would like to start antibiotics, but I am anxious if this is something that needs treatment antibiotics will conflict with. I have Kanaplex on hand.

If this should be moved to the fish disease forum, that would also be appreciated.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

I had a clown fish with the same tail situation. It ended up being a secondary bacterial infection. I tried antibiotics but I think he was already too far gone.
I've had a purple firefish for 6 months and he only came out to eat. But in the last month he's out all the time and when the cherub angel goes after him he doesn't back down. But he's not aggressive.

 

[Flashy Fins]

Thank you for the response. I have asked several local friends and a couple of stores for advice, but have gotten nowhere. Most people are insisting the fish was attacked, despite me explaining everything (no crabs, no other fish except the firefish, etc.), and most advice has been along the lines of forgoing QT altogether, letting the wrasse die and not worrying about the firefish b/c they don't believe this is illness, etc., so I appreciate you taking the time to offer advice.

When you had the clownfish with this problem, were there any other fish in the tank? Were they affected in any way? I ask b/c I am trying to decide what to do to prevent the same thing from happening to the firefish, at the very least. Should I worry about the firefish being exposed to bacterial infection, or is it of no concern since he is not injured?

 

[Newsmyrna80]

I'm sorry but anyone that says to let the wrasse die should not be allowed to own fish or any animals for that matter...ok done ranting.
There was another clown in the QT with him but he did not show any symptoms. Should you treat the asymptomatic fish? That's usually the dilemma. I probably would treat.
Do not forego the QT.

 

[Flashy Fins]

Don't worry, no plans to forgo QT on anything wet/alive, ever again. I've been through the ringer with previous fish (you helped me before, and I did save a fish with your advice, although he later perished), and I'm not willing to take any more chances in my display.

Since my last post, I did get some helpful advice from one local friend I trust, who read through this thread and agreed with the suggestion of bacterial infection. He recommended separating the fish, stopping tank transfers with the wrasse for now, shading him from light and human activity, and medicating with antibiotics. That was my plan, until I noticed the firefish having trouble, too. He is lying on his side at times and breathing a bit heavier than usual, although he is in nowhere near as bad of shape as the wrasse. I gently nudged him with a turkey baster, and he barely reacted. I tried to perk him up with food, but he ignored it. First time food has not gotten him excited.

Since both fish seem to have an issue now, I decided not to separate them (hoping I do not regret it). I moved them both into my QT tank, which was cycled without live rock or anything else that could be contaminated (bad experiences have made me paranoid). It has a HOB filter with sponge insert (no carbon) and a glass lid. I removed the powerhead so the fish would not be overwhelmed with current, since the HOB filter is providing quite a bit of water movement.

I dosed Kanaplex, since it's what I have and believe to be gentle on fish. I may be needlessly medicating the firefish, but since he is no longer symptom free, I feel I should go ahead with treatment. I added an airstone to deal with any oxygen depletion issues from the antibiotic and hope that is enough. I can't remove the lid, for obvious reasons.

Now that I am thinking about oxygen depletion, do you think that was a factor in the rubbermaid bin? I had an airstone in there, but there was a lid on the container to prevent jumping; maybe there was not enough air exchange going on? It was not an issue in the first bin Wed-Sat. There was definitely no ammonia present. Ammonia badge and API test both confirmed this. I even tested nitrite (knowing it would be 0, since they had only been in that water since Saturday morning), and it was 0 as expected.

I'll worry about tank transfers later, if/when the fish are healthy. I have no reason to suspect ich with either fish, except that I now operate as if all fish have it, because I do not know anywhere/anyone who QT's every living thing. So far, the local feedback on that has been that I am just going to kill more fish using that method. I see that TT is stressful (I had some trouble with it in the past, too, but mainly from fish jumping out of containers without lids), and I may decide copper is a better way to go, but I just can't get on board with the idea of not QT'ing after killing fish that way.

Thank you again for your help.

 

[Flashy Fins]

Sad news: the wrasse died. Firefish has only the symptoms of rapid/heavy breathing and lethargy, with no symptoms of parasites such as cloudy eyes, spots, patches, etc., so I am guessing bacterial infection is correct and what killed the wrasse. Hopefully the antibiotics will save the firefish.

QT plan for future fish will be adjusted to place unseen ich elimination towards the end of QT, rather than at the beginning. I am also considering LA fish only, maybe even Diver's Den only (combined with my own QT). As much as I've spent on fish I've killed, I could've had my tank fully stocked through LADD by now.

 

[dc]

[moved]

 

[HumbleFish]

I am also considering LA fish only, maybe even Diver's Den only (combined with my own QT). As much as I've spent on fish I've killed, I could've had my tank fully stocked through LADD by now.

You got that right. I believe I'm close to a 100% success rate with LA and DD fish over the past 2 years. I attribute that mostly to their wholesaler - Quality Marine.

When I buy from a LFS, I have no idea what's gonna happen with the fish. Probably only a 50% success rate.

 

[Deinonych]

You got that right. I believe I'm close to a 100% success rate with LA and DD fish over the past 2 years. I attribute that mostly to their wholesaler - Quality Marine.

+1

The few fish that I have lost from LA/DD have been either my fault or as a result of shipping stress (DOA).

 

[Flashy Fins]

I really wish this was not the outcome, but...

Firefish is now dead. He showed sudden symptoms of brooklynella just before death, so I performed a formalin dip. He perked up and swam around for the first 15 minutes, then suddenly stopped swimming, lied down, and stopped breathing. Flukes were unmistakable in the dip water, but there were not an overwhelming number of them.

Confirmed:
flukes

Possible:
bacterial infection
brooklynella

Just a month ago, I went through brook with previous fish. I did not recognize it with the new fish because it presented itself differently, with no white patches or skin peeling until the firefish was nearly dead (never any of those signs on the wrasse).

I was VERY careful to avoid cross-contamination from my display tank (still in fallow period), to use new saltwater and equipment that had been cleaned and dry for weeks, and to keep the new fish in a separate room altogether, so there would be no splashing, dripping, grabbing the wrong container, etc. I have racked my brain and cannot think of any instance in which I could have cross-contaminated, but it does seem odd to end up with one brook case after another. I feel it's one unlikely scenario versus another.

Either way, I am sick of killing fish. I am even sicker of the responses I get in stores. Being told to skip QT, being spoken down to, getting useless suggestions that make no sense, having to explain what a certain disease is when asking for help... it's all just put a nasty taste in my mouth. I realize most stores cannot reasonably QT the same way LADD does and make money. However, it seems many are pretending they do just as good of a job and are scared to admit they sometimes have diseased fish, lest I, a) ask for credit for a dead one (which I never ask for or expect), or b) go online and name a specific store when talking about my dead fish (which I also never do, as I do not feel they are entirely to blame). I want to support local businesses, but it is not working out for me, at least not with fish.

So, general questions about LADD coming in another thread. I think I will do better to direct my fish purchases there. I'll still QT all fish, but having some of the dirtier work done for me will surely help.

 

[HumbleFish]

I realize most stores cannot reasonably QT the same way LADD does and make money.

I am a huge fan of LA and Diver's Den. But make no mistake, the level of QT LADD does is not thorough. They make sure the fish is eating and treat any obvious afflictions. So, they get you off to a really good start. But it's up to you to "finish the job" so to speak, and put the fish thru a thorough QT protocol.

 

[Flashy Fins]

I am a huge fan of LA and Diver's Den. But make no mistake, the level of QT LADD does is not thorough. They make sure the fish is eating and treat any obvious afflictions. So, they get you off to a really good start. But it's up to you to "finish the job" so to speak, and put the fish thru a thorough QT protocol.

:thumbsup: Agreed, and will do!