SantaMonica
Well-known member
120 degree optics
Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
- Start date
120 degree optics
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
You also have other filtration in place, and if everything were rated according to feeding (which really does make the most sense) then this would be much easier. But if you figure in the skimmer as taking up part of the load, and the GFO and carbon another part, then you can reduce the size of the scrubber to one that is more manageable. Also remember that the guidelines are exactly that - a guide. The feeding based guideline was arrived at based on some trial and error and really has not been through a rigorous scientific process, but it does seem to be generally accurate within reason. Where it starts to go out of whack is on the high and low ends of the scales. So if you're feeding 1/4 cube/day, a 3 sq in screen is pretty ridiculous. Equally out whack are extremely large screens. You are on that end. So I still stand by my thinking that a single 10x10 screen is going to get you a long way towards your goal, and 2 of them is overkill. IMO.
You are going to have to keep up that regimen. There is some evidence that points to an algae scrubber not being optimally effective in a high nutrient system. But if maintained right, it becomes very effective in keeping nutrients low once they are there - very effective.
switch to the phos-blast or high capacity GFO (GFH)
This sounds like long term overfeeding and lack of maintenance. The rock becomes a nutrient sink and when it can't handle anymore, your readings start to spike. Cut your feeding way back. Most fish can go 3 days without food. I feed sometimes every day, but a lot of the times, every other day. Do this at least temporarily until you get things under control. This would also coincide with your smaller (single 100 sq in) screen that is now more appropriately sized for your feeding. Your fish will survive with less food. Your tank will not (or at least your budget will not, having to do all those PWCs)
More lower wattage CFLs are better than one big one, because the one big one will have a big hotspot in the middle, and is harder to direct. Smaller ones can be closer.
And yes 120 degree optics
Cut the nori back to 1/2 along with the rest of your feeding.
Good thing Home Depot has a liberal return policy!
You also have other filtration in place, and if everything were rated according to feeding (which really does make the most sense) then this would be much easier. But if you figure in the skimmer as taking up part of the load, and the GFO and carbon another part, then you can reduce the size of the scrubber to one that is more manageable. Also remember that the guidelines are exactly that - a guide. The feeding based guideline was arrived at based on some trial and error and really has not been through a rigorous scientific process, but it does seem to be generally accurate within reason. Where it starts to go out of whack is on the high and low ends of the scales. So if you're feeding 1/4 cube/day, a 3 sq in screen is pretty ridiculous. Equally out whack are extremely large screens. You are on that end. So I still stand by my thinking that a single 10x10 screen is going to get you a long way towards your goal, and 2 of them is overkill. IMO.
You are going to have to keep up that regimen. There is some evidence that points to an algae scrubber not being optimally effective in a high nutrient system. But if maintained right, it becomes very effective in keeping nutrients low once they are there - very effective.
switch to the phos-blast or high capacity GFO (GFH)
This sounds like long term overfeeding and lack of maintenance. The rock becomes a nutrient sink and when it can't handle anymore, your readings start to spike. Cut your feeding way back. Most fish can go 3 days without food. I feed sometimes every day, but a lot of the times, every other day. Do this at least temporarily until you get things under control. This would also coincide with your smaller (single 100 sq in) screen that is now more appropriately sized for your feeding. Your fish will survive with less food. Your tank will not (or at least your budget will not, having to do all those PWCs)
More lower wattage CFLs are better than one big one, because the one big one will have a big hotspot in the middle, and is harder to direct. Smaller ones can be closer.
And yes 120 degree optics
Cut the nori back to 1/2 along with the rest of your feeding.
Good thing Home Depot has a liberal return policy!
I want to personally thank you for taking the time not only in writing this whole algae scrubber basics thread and then revised version... but also in taking the time to respond to me and my specific issues.
I read through your revisions and have decided to take your advice (both above, regarding the screen size, and on going with LED lighting). That being said, I really don't want to build a diy LED board....I have purchased lights from E-shine in the past, (I have a 150 watt Cree fixture from them that lights my 20 gal frag tank). W/out consideration to price and based on your one 3 watt LED per 12 sq in of screen.....do you think the Eshine 50 watt per side is too much for a 10"x10" screen?
The other option is the 3 watt LED bulbs on ebay like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12RED-6BLUE...d=100011&prg=1005&rk=2&rkt=5&sd=171140238983&
This model is 54 watts (18LEDs) but they also make 21 watts and 27 watts and can make them with ALL 120 degree lenses and either ALL red 660nm or any combo that you want. Based on a 10" x 10" screen I would think the 27 watt would be the closest fit to the formula requirement (100 sq ft / 12 = 8.3 x 3 watt LEDs)....I hesitate because on one hand I am afraid of the spread on the other hand if I went with the 54 watt it may be too much. What is your feeling? The next question is....if I use the clamp lights....would the reflector serve a purpose for this type of bulb?
thanks again,
Frank
alan.reef
New member
This is an ATS I built as a test bed. It sat across the top of a 55g. It was LED powered and used a heavily corrugated acrylic sheet as the screen.
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I thought I could get better growth if I reddened the light so I did. I think it helped a little.
Summary.
1) The acrylic screen was too smooth and could never be made rough enough.
2) These super bright LEDs were not super enough. You'd need HBLEDs to really make it crank.
3) My water distribution at the top had too many dribble and leak issues that caused water to go places it shouldn't - like down the front window where algae would grow.
4) This was before we realized that you need an ATS big enough or it will never convert to the light green efficient algae. Exacerbating this was the fact that my tank was running a little over 1,100ppm nitrate.
I subsequently converted it to horizontal and learned even more about the issues of horizontals.
is the light DIY by you, im looking something like your slim. space saver.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
salty, that is kcress' LED scrubber from WAY back. Those are low power LEDs, and they will grow algae, but those LEDs don't have the "punch" that 3W or 1W LEDs do. Essentially, if you don't have to heat sink the LEDs, they are inadequate for getting really thick growth - not enough light makes it through the algae mat to the base, resulting in detachment
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
The reflectors of the clamp-on lights are only needed if you are using bare sprial CFLs. Floodlight CFLs or LEDs do not need the reflector.
I'm not sure where the formula 100/12=8.3 x 3W came from...that's mixing the feeding calculation and the wattage calculation somehow - not right.
I think the older style 50W e-shine grow bar (which is 50x 1W LEDs in about a 6:1 R:B ratio) would work OK for a 10x10 screen, but better if you made it wider to match the dimensions of the fixture. I have a couple of those that I used for building one scrubber and if I had to do that again, I would position the fixtures about 3-4" from the screen. They have a high intensity directly in front of the fixture. You could hang them such that they were say 1-2" below the level of the pipe, pointing down at a slight angle such that they were aimed at the center of the screen. But I don't think they make that one anymore, now they're all 3W LED fixtures, you could probably have them make one to your specs (I would do 22 red and 3 blue, or even 23:2)
Then if you went with the LED floods, I would actually recommend a wider screen again, maybe 12" wide and 8-9" tall, and then 2 of the 27W floods on each side and make the ratio of red:blue much higher. Their is 2:1 and this is a lot of blue, you want 6:1 or even 8:1. This means if the 27W lamp is 9x 3W LEDs, only one blue. It's really only supplementary, but IMO it is important. Each of these lamps would cover an 8x8 screen OK, again you could mount them higher than the center of the screen (slightly) and angle them downward to cause a coverage that is more elliptical (to cover each half of the 12x9 screen, your coverage would ideally be 6" wide and 9" tall for each lamp)...make sense?
The simple way to figure out the comparable LED wattage needed is that it is roughly 3/4 or less of the necessary CFL wattage (when using 'nameplate rating' of the LED). So if you need 50W per side CFL, you need 37.5W per side LED. But this is 37.5 / 3W = 12.5 3-watt LEDs.
The actual power usage is different, because a 3W deep red at 700mA will have a voltage drop of 2.3V or so, which is actually only 1.7W of actual power use (P=I*V, or Power = current x voltage). This is where it gets confusing, so unless you really want to sit down and understand why a 3W LED only consumes 1.7W, just stick with the simple formulas. It won't change anything, except your understanding of marketing.
The point is that your screen that needs 50W of CFL per side for "normal" lighting and 100W of CFL per side for 'high' lighting will need 38W LED (normal) and 75W LED (high) per side. So shoot in the middle and get 2x 27W for each side and you have good coverage and your wattage is correct.
I've been researching a bit on how many 3W LEDs you need to use. The general consensus at this point seems to be that you need one 3W LED on each side for every 15-20 square inches of screen. Going with the new feeding-based sizing guidelines, it seems that a simple technique would be to use one 3W LED on each side for every 12 square inches. So a 2-cube/day Algae Scrubber would need 4 3W LEDs, two on each side. Distance from the screen is something that depends on some factors, such as how hard the LEDs are being driven and how long of a photoperiod is used. New ground is being broken on this almost daily, and I am in the process of gathering as much information as I can from the DIYers so that some kind of "˜standard' can be established.
This is where I got the formula from but I think I may have neglected to take into consideration the # of cubes fed per day.
Thanks for all of your help....I think I will go with the ONE wider screen and 2x27 watt bulbs per side with only 1 blue LED each and 120 degree lenses.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Four 3w LEDs for a 2 cube is what I do. You could also do 6, with one of them being blue.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I have been recommending one per side of ever 4 sq in for high light and one per side of every 8 sq in for normal light. LEDs 2" from screen with a diffuser in between until growth is established.
IMO on per 12 sq in is really below the minimum, and 15-20 is right out. My scrubbers have 6 deep reds and 2 blues (each blue at 1/2 current) on each side of a 24 sq in screen. that's 12 reds and (effectively) 2 blues total.
Again, this lower density will get you growth, but that growth will be limited both in thickness (because there isn't enough light to penetrate through a thick mat) and total area of growth (because LEDs have a 'cone' of intensity and the dropoff is fast outside of that cone). Therefore a certain density / spacing is really required at the given distance to the screen.
cubfanmatt
New member
I started up my DIY Waterfall ATS today to test the water flow. Left to right is working very well, but front to back isnt equal. Any ideas or is this ok as long the whole screen is covered?
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
If you are getting more flow on one side of the screen, then your slot is not pointing straight down. The screen should hang freely in the slot. You do want even flow across the entire screen if possible.
Also when you cut the slot initially, the PVC pipe will want to close (meaning you will want to make a second pass) and this may be pinching the screen a bit
Also when you cut the slot initially, the PVC pipe will want to close (meaning you will want to make a second pass) and this may be pinching the screen a bit
Chris Abbott
New member
Cleaned my screen today and noticed my cheato is falling apart. It still has a decent color on top but when I went to pull it out to suck detritus out of my bare bottom sump the bottom layers seam to be braking up. Is this fairly normal due to the screen finally starting to outcompete for nutes? I'm thinking of pulling it all together but then where will all my beneficial little friends live. Would all those little guys hang out in little scrubby pads?
Chris Abbott
New member
I ordered parts to switch from my single cfl to 12 660's running on the 700mah meanwell from rapid led. I just started getting the nice green stuff on my screen in the last to weeks it has been nasty brown for the first couple months. My screen is 6 wide x 8 high wil 6 LEDs per side work out well? What should I look for color wise in order to determine if the screen is getting burned up and when nutes are getting really low? Is there any consistent meaning to algae color?
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Yes chaeto falling apart is good. Might as well remove it and toss in some scrubby pads (without soap) or rock rubble.
For 6 X 8 I'd probably use 8 LEDs, but 6 will work.
Burning would be bald spots; white screen, or bright yellow rubbery stuff.
For 6 X 8 I'd probably use 8 LEDs, but 6 will work.
Burning would be bald spots; white screen, or bright yellow rubbery stuff.
cubfanmatt
New member
Floyd, I thought you might want to make a short trip to Chicago for this event. I know I would catch your seminar and stop by your both.
http://aquaticexperience.org
http://aquaticexperience.org
Chris Abbott
New member
Maybe better posted in a DIY thread but I know people in this thread have a lot of exp with the 660 LEDs, I am going to use these 4-7-5/8 heat sinks for 6 LEDs each. Will that be an adequate heatsink with no fan? Running off of the meanwell 700mah driver mentioned above
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
yeah, that is plenty of heat sinking for 6 LEDs
You ever get this figured out? I just made a new setup directly off the overflow and I'm getting the same problem. I widened the slot a little but still having the same problem. Longways the screen is snug in the slot (meaning the left edge of the screen is touching the slot and same for the right). Maybe easing that pressure would help?
Oh and a quick side note, I was using white velcro adhered to thin plexi for the the screen and just switched to the plastic canvas roughed up with a hole saw. Its been just over a week and on the first cleaning I already had a long strand of hair algae. If anyone was thinking of being clever and finding a new screen media, dont! You wont beat the canvas and you'll just set yourself back a few months.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Good point, if your screen if as wide or wider than the slot, that might cause the screen to get wavy, and this cause the problem.
Widening the slot should only be done if you are going to exceed 50 GPH / inch for flow, and even then, your benefit is going to be at the point of diminishing returns most likely.
+1 on screen material. For a waterfall, there's no comparison IMO
Widening the slot should only be done if you are going to exceed 50 GPH / inch for flow, and even then, your benefit is going to be at the point of diminishing returns most likely.
+1 on screen material. For a waterfall, there's no comparison IMO
