Algae Scrubber ?

[jeepinreefer07]

Ok guys and gals. I am sure there is already a thread about this but this but what is the advantage of Algae Scrubbers? I have a huge skimmer that is overrated for the tank and have tons of SPS. Does the Algae Scrubber help with Algae control in the tank it self? Do you run these with a skimmer as well? Does it clear up the water? Any chemical benefits? Or anything else you may want to add. I am starting to see these pop up everywhere. Thanks

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Ok guys and gals. I am sure there is already a thread about this but this but what is the advantage of Algae Scrubbers?

There are many advantages, it would take a while to list them. If you really want the detailed info, you can find much of it on [when we block a link, there is a reason, and it's bad form to find ways around that block] (rc blocks the link)

I have a huge skimmer that is overrated for the tank and have tons of SPS. Does the Algae Scrubber help with Algae control in the tank it self?

Pretty much the entire purpose of the Algae Scrubber is to reduce N and P, and as it has a much more preferable area in which to grow (the Algae Scrubber screen) and it grows much more efficiently, so it out-competes the display tank algae, in most cases very quickly. This is especially the case if you start with a low-nutrient system. I'm guessing that you have pretty low N and P if you're running a large SPS tank.

Do you run these with a skimmer as well?

Just like any marine system, multiple filtration is widely used. There is really no problem running a skimmer and an Algae Scrubber at the same time. Some have noticed a lower volume of skimmate over time. I personally know people who run both.

Carbon dosing (in any form) generally interferes with an Algae Scrubber as they are both 'competing' for the same thing (N and P). An Algae Scrubber will quickly out-compete just about any refugium.

Does it clear up the water?

Yes, removing waste (N and P) will almost always clear up your water.

Any chemical benefits?

A whole bunch. As algal biomass increases, it also releases a multitude of carbon compunds into the water column with have been shown to be of great benefit to coral growth. Again, these are listed on the algae scrubber site.

Or anything else you may want to add. I am starting to see these pop up everywhere. Thanks

If you decide to try one, make sure you read as much as you can and do it right. The sticky thread and the algae scrubber site are probably your 2 best resources.

There's also a good thread on Reef Sanctuary, that's what got me started. Fun reading if you want to see how heated some arguments can get. That's why I personally avoid skimmer vs scrubber.

 

[jeepinreefer07]

Awesome will GFO interfere?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

GFO is very good at totally removing P. In algae growth, one molecule of N and one of P and one photon form one cell of chlorophyll. This is way simplified but you get the point. If you have zero P, then the algae growth is phosphate limited, and Nitrates will not be efficiently 'consumed'. So if you're going to run GFO, the best thing to do is to put it after the scrubber in flow order, and dial it way back.

A note to add here, phase in an ATS. Any change to a system will cause the stability point to shift. Keeping all other filtration as-is until the ATS is mature is well advised. With the GFO, I would slowly dial it back to allow for trace P to be consumed by the algae and start growth, but do not allow P to raise to levels that would be detrimental to coral growth.

What does your filtration system currently consist of?

 

[jeepinreefer07]

In the following order
Filter Socks, Octopus Skimmer, Side Mounted refugium with nothing in it besides cheato and live rock, GFO reactor, Carbon reactor, Return pump (Reeflo Dart)

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

With all of that, do you have a water quality issue?

 

[jeepinreefer07]

Not really my phosphates are 0 nitrates are 0 and Mag is 1450 however I have had some hair algae issues. I want to blame it on the old bulbs but not sure yet. I just replaced all the bulbs so I guess well have to wait and see whats going to happen. Thanks for all the info by the way!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

How long has your P been zero? Was it ever higher?

 

[jeepinreefer07]

My P has been around 0 for about 4mnt other than that is used to be around .03. However even when it was at .03 I had no issues. So I am almost let to believe that the bulbs really played a roll in algae issue what do you think?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Possibly, depending on the type, brand and how old they are, and how many hours/day you run them. I was thinking that P might still be leeching out of the rocks, but with it that low for that long, I don't think that's it. Could be food related, the algae would be getting it before the skimmer...either way, with the amount of filtration you are running, if you're going to keep most of that, then you could start out with an undersized scrubber, and treat is as supplemental filtration, just to keep the DT algae under control.

 

[Amphiprion]

I used a skimmer with my ATS for a good while. It really depends upon the system. In my case, even with heavy feeding, I think the combination was overkill, since it resulted in pale, starved corals. That situation may have been reversed with even heavier feeding (already at 4 cubes daily on 40g system, much more would have been expensive), but I think subtracting the skimmer from the equation would have been wiser. I can't say that will apply in every situation, I am fairly confident that that would've helped in my situation. If you still wish to incorporate a scrubber, I'd recommend a smaller one, as Floyd R Turbo said. While I'm all for low water column nutrients, if you aren't feeding enough the corals will have nothing left to scavenge from--so while prey capture is more preferable, they obviously will take dissolved N and P sources in the absence/scarcity of the former. That was the problem I ran into, as I said earlier.

 

[pskelton]

I have been reading up on algae scrubbers for a while now and just put on my tank 2 weeks ago. My tank had been doing well for the last year with a deep sand bed and a low end skimmer. This all changed when a friend of a friend gave me a snow flake eel. The eel dug up my sand bed and over about a month my tank went from low nitrate levels to over 160 PPM. I have been doing large water changes weekly trying to get it under control but the nitrate level just came back up. Last night I cleaned my screen for the second time and I checked my nitrate. The test came back at 100 PPM. This is unbelievable I have read a lot about ATS but I never expected results this fast. I plan on pulling my skimmer out next week when I clean my screen for the 3rd time.

 

[travis32]

I've been learning that N and P are directly related. So, removal of P by a scrubber requires the presence of N in application. I'm afraid that my Scrubber may be limited by the newness of my tank. My 125g is 5 months old. I have tons of Briopsis, and though I don't test regularly, my nitrates in the past hovered around zero, which I believe can be the case with a fairly new tank and a low stalking level and low feeding levels.

I've been feeding heavier to actually try to keep my fish healthier and raise my nitrates higher. The only issue is that if my nitrates remain low and phosphates leach from the rock and ramain high. Will the scrubber compensate for increased phosphates? So far based on the reef chemistry group, the answer is no. Phosphate absorbtion will be limited by available nitrate absorbtion. Urrg...

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes, limiting P and N will cause the other to not get absorbed as efficiently. However if you feed your tank a good quality food, you will always have some N and if you throw some flake food in now and then you will have P, which should solve the issue. So the bottom line is that you should be able to control N and P absorption via proper feeding when using a scrubber.

pskelton:

That is totally awesome. Dropping 60 ppm in 2 weeks from a brand new screen! Did you do water changes also? I wouldn't say that it would necessarily be directly attributed to the scrubber 100%, because at some point the nitrates getting released from the substrate should have slowed down, so time will tell.

As for the skimmer, if you do decide to pull it, do not pull it that soon. Wait until the N and P are down to low levels, and then leave it running until you are comfortable with the stability of the tank. Any change in filtration, even the position of rockwork in the tank, will throw the system into flux, which is generally what you want to avoid. So make changes very, very slowly and let the system adjust to the new 'set point' before phasing anything out. You might consider things like turning off the skimmer one day a week, then 2, and so on.

 

[pskelton]

I am just getting into the scrubber thing my self but I would think that if your tank has the correct conditions present to grow Briopsis then you should have no problem growing algae on a screen in your scrubber. With the scrubber being an ideal environment for algae to grow it should be able to starve your Briopsis out in time.

 

[pskelton]

Yes, limiting P and N will cause the other to not get absorbed as efficiently. However if you feed your tank a good quality food, you will always have some N and if you throw some flake food in now and then you will have P, which should solve the issue. So the bottom line is that you should be able to control N and P absorption via proper feeding when using a scrubber.

pskelton:

That is totally awesome. Dropping 60 ppm in 2 weeks from a brand new screen! Did you do water changes also? I wouldn't say that it would necessarily be directly attributed to the scrubber 100%, because at some point the nitrates getting released from the substrate should have slowed down, so time will tell.

As for the skimmer, if you do decide to pull it, do not pull it that soon. Wait until the N and P are down to low levels, and then leave it running until you are comfortable with the stability of the tank. Any change in filtration, even the position of rockwork in the tank, will throw the system into flux, which is generally what you want to avoid. So make changes very, very slowly and let the system adjust to the new 'set point' before phasing anything out. You might consider things like turning off the skimmer one day a week, then 2, and so on.

I have not done an actual water change since its install but there are a couple of other things that have contributed to the nitrate drop. The display is a 55 gallon tank and I have not had a sump. My algae scrubber install included a PVC overflow and a 5 gallon bucket sump that contains the scrubber. While I was building the overflow and testing it in my garage for a few weeks and during that time I zip tied a roughed up screen to the end of a maxijet sure flow shroud in my tank. This shroud has been a big GHA magnet and after a couple weeks the screen started to grow GHA on it. When I started the screen on the scrubber I cut out and zip tied a section of the GHA covered screen to the new scrubber screen. The GHA took hold vary quick and now the new screen is growing GHA on its own now. I also dosed iron to my tank.
With the above being said the eel has also settled down and it is not digging anymore. I am sure the scrubber is not completely responsible for the nitrate drop but I can tell you I am completely sold on this scrubber. It cost me about $50.00 to build the thing including the overflow (Pump price not included had them on hand). This is less money than I have spent on water changes over the last couple months.
That's good advice on the skimmer I think I will wean my tank off of it slowly.

 

[tcuguy]

Do an ATS and you will NEVER look back... they are amazing. If you are not "albe to grow it" because your tank is a low nutrient tank, it still help when something goes wrong (as a buffer)... and you will NEVER have algae in the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just to counterbalance the ATS proponents that such a thread naturally attracts...

ATS systems have been around for many years. They often seem to not live up to the hype (such as presented in posts above :lol: ), and many folks that have tried them have stopped using them after a while. They clearly are not a dominant method used by reefers, and folks considering them should really ask very carefully why that is the case. I expect I've read as many threads on water husbandry methods as almost anyone, and I've not been convinced to operate my tanks this way. IMO, there are many good ways to export nutrients, and using more than a single method is a good plan. I presently use macroalgae, big rock filled refugia, skimming, GAC, GFO or other phosphate binder, and organic carbon dosing (vinegar).

That said, there certainly are folks who have used ATS systems successfully and like them, as is also apparent from this thread.

 

[nate82]

My question is can you use them with macro algae? I am planning my 45g cube now and was planning on running a separate 10g refugium along with a sump. Here's my idea.

Should I scrap the ATS and keep it simple? It's a brand new system so obviously low nutrient. I want to keep the DSB for dentrification and the fuge for pods (planning on a mandarin). What do you guys think? ATS's just sound like powerhouses, but starving corals is never a good thing.

 

[mgraf]

IMO to keep it simple:
scrap the rock rubble, it just holds materials, same as bio balls do
scrap the mangoves and macro, your algae scrubber will out compete them, they won't do well and your scrubber will do even better without them.
I have been running a scrubber for about 8 months now, at first I had a skimmer running, macro's, rock rubble, and deep sand bed. Same setup as you almost. I still have the deep sand bed but, eliminated the other stuff over time for the sake of simplicity. I clean the scrubbers algae once a week, do monthly water changes, feed often and alot, and my corals and fish have never been happier or fatter in the year and a half it has been set up. Many may disagree but, for me it is the easiest way to run a salt water reef.