always have problems keeping zoanthids

kzooreefer

New member
I'm a long time lurker in this thread and I have just about given up on trying to keep zonathids. I read something in another thread by XXXXXXXX, went something like "anyone can grow a colony on a frag plug". Which got me to thinking, the only colonies I have that are still alive were large well established colonies (50+ polyps) when I bought them. Every small frag I've ever bought has died with in months if not days. I was always blaming myself for bad water chemistry or the wrong lighting now I think it just that these small frags are doomed from the start. There just isn't enough there to keep them going whereas a larger mother colony has a better chance at survival. The higher the polyp count to start allows more to be lost without the whole colony collapsing. Plus these frags are fairly imature, I'm getting them probably only weeks after they were fragged and who knows how many times those were fragged. I liken it to imbredding in dogs. So now I'm going to swear off the small frags as I almost made the mistake of trying them again a few weeks ago after a 2 year hiatus.

Edited at the OP's request ........
 
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hmm had not thought of that. I also have problems keeping zoanthids even though everything else in my tank is doing great.
 
I'm a long time lurker in this thread and I have just about given up on trying to keep zonathids. I read something in another thread by Mucho Reef, went something like "anyone can grow a colony on a frag plug". Which got me to thinking, the only colonies I have that are still alive were large well established colonies (50+ polyps) when I bought them. Every small frag I've ever bought has died with in months if not days. I was always blaming myself for bad water chemistry or the wrong lighting now I think it just that these small frags are doomed from the start. There just isn't enough there to keep them going whereas a larger mother colony has a better chance at survival. The higher the polyp count to start allows more to be lost without the whole colony collapsing. Plus these frags are fairly imature, I'm getting them probably only weeks after they were fragged and who knows how many times those were fragged. I liken it to imbredding in dogs. So now I'm going to swear off the small frags as I almost made the mistake of trying them again a few weeks ago after a 2 year hiatus.

Good for you! Your absolutely correct about colony size. These tiny frags most people are selling now, 1-2 polyps, are destined for death. If i were going to frag or purchase zoanthids or playthoas i would never cut/buy anything less than 12-15 polyps.
 
Hummm...
I kinda agree with that, but...
Other people are happy with small frags.
Maybe you should change the source of the frags!

Grandis.
 
Hummm...
I kinda agree with that, but...
Other people are happy with small frags.
Maybe you should change the source of the frags!

Grandis.

The local supply is rather limited, I was getting them from a LFS and I think she got them from her son and some other customers. Last time I was there her son had taken over and the prices had shoot up dramatically. I've also had problems with frags I've gotten at swap meets. And the prices people were asking there to me were outrageous. The best luck I've had is with liveaquaria and they at least have a 14 day return policy, I think its even 30 days on the divers den corals.
 
I'm a long time lurker in this thread and I have just about given up on trying to keep zonathids. I read something in another thread by Mucho Reef, went something like "anyone can grow a colony on a frag plug". Which got me to thinking, the only colonies I have that are still alive were large well established colonies (50+ polyps) when I bought them. Every small frag I've ever bought has died with in months if not days. I was always blaming myself for bad water chemistry or the wrong lighting now I think it just that these small frags are doomed from the start. There just isn't enough there to keep them going whereas a larger mother colony has a better chance at survival. The higher the polyp count to start allows more to be lost without the whole colony collapsing. Plus these frags are fairly imature, I'm getting them probably only weeks after they were fragged and who knows how many times those were fragged. I liken it to imbredding in dogs. So now I'm going to swear off the small frags as I almost made the mistake of trying them again a few weeks ago after a 2 year hiatus.


Hello, please direct me to the thread where I said that. If I said it, I want to make a very strong correction. I posted a thread about a year ago requesting reefers to post a full colony picture which began with a 2 or 3 polyp frags. To my knowledge, I don't recall a single person posting a picture of a mother colony. At best you will see maybe a 2 x 3" rock if that. I'm not talking about a new purchase from a store of the large 4 x 6 inch or 5 x 5 inch rocks we use to see before these names caused prices to skyrocket in 2005.

So if I said that, I want to add a major caveat to that statement. There was a time when you could buy frags from reefers who really cultured these corals in optimal conditions with the best of husbandry and quality of care, via fragging, proper fragging intervals and not the improper, premature and excessive fragging you see today. Just search any forum at any time anywhere, and you will see, why are my polyps dying. Why won't they expand, are they alive, what's wrong, they are everywhere. Many of these repeditive, excessive, improper, pre mature frags are going to die after you have spent $ 20 to hundreds of dollars for a single 1 to 3 polyp frag, no matter what you do.

Back in the day, before 2005, we discussed, ask questions, read books, did research etc etc etc before venturing into buying corals. I'm not speaking to anyone here and this is directed to no one person, but far too many people are rushing out and buying zoas and palys because they are the it coral to have and make money off of. So if I did say that, I really need to clarify it. If purchased from someone who knows about and how to frag an aquaculture and is not whacking off every new polyp which shows up and knows how to be a responsible reefer, yes, you can grow a colony from a frag. But that practice is seldom if ever seen anymore. Sure, you might see a dukey brown, dull green or dull pale orange large colony everywhere for sale on line or in LFS, but show me a large aquacultured mother colony of these named colorful polyps that everyone is spending their pay checks on? You're not going to see them. Why bother to let them grow, when you can whack off every new polyp which appears, and pay the car note with it.

To the OP, I'm sorry you have had such bad luck, but you have my utmost respect in stepping back and not continually buying corals only to have them perish. I have so much respect for you in doing this. I know many others who have crashed tank after tank, killed polyp after polyps, yet they go back time and time again and buy, just to kill more polyps. Not speaking of you, but there a lot of people who know every single name of every single polyp out there, but has killed just as many polyps as they can name. This is not reefing and we have gotten away from reefing. Reefing has been replaced with retailing and a lot of perfectly and otherwise healthy corals are suffering at the hands of profits.

If anyone knows where I made that statement, can you please post the link right here in this thread so I can make that correction. Thanks guys/gals.

Again, much respect to the OP for posting this.

Mucho
 
Hello, please direct me to the thread where I said that. If I said it, I want to make a very strong correction. I posted a thread about a year ago requesting reefers to post a full colony picture which began with a 2 or 3 polyp frags. To my knowledge, I don't recall a single person posting a picture of a mother colony. At best you will see maybe a 2 x 3" rock if that. I'm not talking about a new purchase from a store of the large 4 x 6 inch or 5 x 5 inch rocks we use to see before these names caused prices to skyrocket in 2005.

So if I said that, I want to add a major caveat to that statement. There was a time when you could buy frags from reefers who really cultured these corals in optimal conditions with the best of husbandry and quality of care, via fragging, proper fragging intervals and not the improper, premature and excessive fragging you see today. Just search any forum at any time anywhere, and you will see, why are my polyps dying. Why won't they expand, are they alive, what's wrong, they are everywhere. Many of these repeditive, excessive, improper, pre mature frags are going to die after you have spent $ 20 to hundreds of dollars for a single 1 to 3 polyp frag, no matter what you do.

Back in the day, before 2005, we discussed, ask questions, read books, did research etc etc etc before venturing into buying corals. I'm not speaking to anyone here and this is directed to no one person, but far too many people are rushing out and buying zoas and palys because they are the it coral to have and make money off of. So if I did say that, I really need to clarify it. If purchased from someone who knows about and how to frag an aquaculture and is not whacking off every new polyp which shows up and knows how to be a responsible reefer, yes, you can grow a colony from a frag. But that practice is seldom if ever seen anymore. Sure, you might see a dukey brown, dull green or dull pale orange large colony everywhere for sale on line or in LFS, but show me a large aquacultured mother colony of these named colorful polyps that everyone is spending their pay checks on? You're not going to see them. Why bother to let them grow, when you can whack off every new polyp which appears, and pay the car note with it.

To the OP, I'm sorry you have had such bad luck, but you have my utmost respect in stepping back and not continually buying corals only to have them perish. I have so much respect for you in doing this. I know many others who have crashed tank after tank, killed polyp after polyps, yet they go back time and time again and buy, just to kill more polyps. Not speaking of you, but there a lot of people who know every single name of every single polyp out there, but has killed just as many polyps as they can name. This is not reefing and we have gotten away from reefing. Reefing has been replaced with retailing and a lot of perfectly and otherwise healthy corals are suffering at the hands of profits.

If anyone knows where I made that statement, can you please post the link right here in this thread so I can make that correction. Thanks guys/gals.

Again, much respect to the OP for posting this.

Mucho

It was in a post from yesterday in the genral section in the thread about showpieces http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1941053&page=6.

I probably shouldn't have used quotes as I was paraphrasing something you said and should have expanded it more to say that you were saying anyone can start a small frag of polyps on a plug but they won't grow out to a mother colony. Sorry if it came off sounding wrong but I was going from memory.

After reading that thread I had a kind of ahah moment that it isn't a water quality issue, a lighting issue or my lack of skills as to why I can't get zoanthids to grow. Its I'm starting with very small frags that are doomed from the start. Zoanthids are the only thing I have problems with, everyhting else is growing out of control. Though I've had success with two large colonies of palythoas that started from larger mother colonies and those are the only zoas I've had success with.
 
NO, I never said that anywhere in that thread and I don't think I made that inference at all. When you said that I said that, I was shocked, I went back and I didn't find that anywhere in any of my post. That is a good thread and I hope everyobe reads it including all newbies.

You are not alone, a lot of people have experienced the same moratality you did with these tiny frags for the reasons I have listed above. I would step back, take some time and do some research. I think you can be successful my friend. Just find someone close to you whom takes very good care of their corals and watch and learn from them. Then when you're ready, start slow and document all that you do. Or, ask tons of questions right here in this forum. Again, much respect for stepping back and taking a long look at what has happened. Good luck and hang tough my friend.

Mucho
 
So what should the minimum number of polyps on a frag plug be in order to ensure success?

Meaning at what point does the chance of survival for that frag outweigh the chance of it melting?

Yes I realize this is such an open ended question with eleventy variables but generally speaking: 5, 10 or more?

For example I figure there is no answer for the "deep water" zoas from "Japan".
 
For example I figure there is no answer for the "deep water" zoas from "Japan".

The "deep water" zoas from japan, are called "deep water" zoas to get people to buy them, because they have a different name. There is no such thing as "deep water" Zoanthids or Palythoas. Unless of course they mean they collected them in 20ft of water instead of 18ft... Its just simply called clever marketing, like LE, One of a Kind, ect.
 
So what should the minimum number of polyps on a frag plug be in order to ensure success?

Meaning at what point does the chance of survival for that frag outweigh the chance of it melting?

Yes I realize this is such an open ended question with eleventy variables but generally speaking: 5, 10 or more?

I answered this in a previous post, a good rule of thumb I go by is 12-15 polyps at a bare min. Any more than that greatly increases the likelihood of survival. (As long as the polyps are properly healed.)
 
Yeah sorry someone else probably said it and I just thought it was you. But anyways it was immediately after reading something to that effect in that thread that I posted here.

My system has been up and running for 5 years now and I've had great success with every thing but zoas and those are the only things I bought from small frags. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of reefers where I live that know very much. The LFS, all two of them here that sell corals, are pathetic. One even specializes in corals but the guys running it are the same ones selling the small frags for very high prices and every thing there is covered in HA. Not sure I trust their experience when their own displays are in such poor condition. Most of the local reefers go there and most of their stock comes from them. So I kind of have trust issues with the locals.

Every thing I've learned about reefing I've gotten from RC though at times its hard to shift through all the BS. I have a degree in Biology and one in Environmental Earth Science and have some expertise in water quality and microbiology so its easier for me to quickly differentiate between what I percieve to be BS and the truth. I also have had freshwater aquariums for over 45 years, cichlids, and a lot of that experience transfers over. In fact my last cichlid died last year, he was 9 (died prematurely due to a heater failure). So I switched over to doing the reef aquarium full time instead of having to split my resources.

Again sorry for mis-quoting you it wasn't intentional and no harm was intended.
 
The "deep water" zoas from japan, are called "deep water" zoas to get people to buy them, because they have a different name. There is no such thing as "deep water" Zoanthids or Palythoas. Unless of course they mean they collected them in 20ft of water instead of 18ft... Its just simply called clever marketing, like LE, One of a Kind, ect.

Yes thus the " " around them.

Ok so we have 15.

Thank you for answering my question.

P.S. You forgot "rare".:beer:
 
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