Am I crazy

[oblio]

So Bigzmans recent troubles prompted this post. We (any of us) can control lots of "things" concerning our tanks, but it seems to me that Chloramines is like this invisible monster ready to ruin any of our days/tanks. I recently bought a couple of those carbon blocks that BulkReefSupply showed they could remove chloramines darn well, and seemed to last quite a long time. I put 2 back to back in my system just because I wanted to be sure.
Do any of you actually test for chloramines? DI resin doesn't remove it, so relying on our TDS meters to read zero is a false assurance. I bought a chloramine kit a year ago but honestly I have little faith in its honesty. Just seems we can adopt good husbandry skills, test appropriately but this single thing seems elusive to me. I was thinking of maybe treating my RODI water with Seachem Prime as it reports it breaks down chloramines. But I as a rule add as little as possible to my tank in an attempt to keep it simple.
I was wondering what you guys felt about the subject, maybe how you avoid this specific impending tank bomb from showing up in your tanks.

Regards,

 

[snake1]

Everyone keeps saying chloramines ..how do we know it isn't some coral that releases a chemical as a means of warfare into the water column to attack neighboring corals???

 

[asbauto]

I agree with both of you, not really sure yet what happened to big Z tank but is it is very sad to see a lot of beautiful corals gone in hours. Back to chloramines they are very troublesome also I seen first hand on Rogers tank what they can do to an amazing reef in a box and it shows that there are a lot of magic cures, some work some don't, but carbon blocks can save a lot of headaches, money and grief for just a few bucks. so why not install a chloramine block just in case

 

[jahel318]

Isn't Tampa obligated to furnish Info on whether or not there are chloramines in our tap? Where I lived up north if u asked they had to furnish in writing that there were no chloramines.

 

[ganjero]

Tampa http://www.tampagov.net/sites/default/files/water/files/Calendar_Year_2013_Water_Quality_Report.pdf
Pinellas http://www.pinellascounty.org/utilities/documents/CCR_2013.pdf

Both reports show Chloramines formed at the end of the process for residual maintenance/disinfection.

 

[ichthyman]

Crazy is the fervor that those marketing videos of BRS created. The issue is not new and was "long" ago thoroughly explained by Randy Holmes Farely.

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

Reverse Osmosis/Deionization Systems to Purify Tap Water for Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

Before spending the extra cash digest a non-commercial view.

Everyone keeps saying chloramines ..how do we know it isn't some coral that releases a chemical as a means of warfare into the water column to attack neighboring corals???

Not saying it is the cause of BigZ woes BUT you get a cookie for bigger picture thinking.

 

[Ted_C]

The thing you have to ask yourself is - why do some have trouble with chloramines while others do not? We all live in the tampa area and it's rare for a municipality to still use chlorine instead of chloramine as the disenfectant.

Regular maintenance and monitoring of the RODI system should provide plenty of protection against chloramines. Using higher quality parts in the RODI should also be a must. If you buy your filters or overall units from BRS - your getting what you pay for. Invest the dollars now on higher quality sediment filters (0.5 micron or less), higher quality carbon filters and a more robust measuring system (with pressure gauges and multiple inline meters)

Use of higher quality carbon blocks should also be sufficient (0.5 micron Bituminous).

The problem with the BRS study is that they are a business trying to sell you something. Their study was only of carbon blocks and activated carbon (just loose carbon) with no details on the quality of those cartridges. They had no sediment filter before the blocks (so the blocks could foul quicker) - no membrane - no DI. Their "universal" blocks - which appeared to work the best - were probably of the same grade as spectrapure's 10" 0.5 micron block (which is about $5 bucks cheaper). Also no details on the pH of their source water.

Everyone's water could be different - so it's hard to say replace the carbon blocks every 6 months to avoid issues.

Here's another solution for everyone - try using Prime if your concerned?

More (really really great info) can be found here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1735402

 

[ganjero]

Crazy is the fervor that those marketing videos of BRS created. The issue is not new and was "long" ago thoroughly explained by Randy Holmes Farely.

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.htm

Reverse Osmosis/Deionization Systems to Purify Tap Water for Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

Before sending the extra cash digest a non-commercial view.

Not saying it is the cause of BigZ woes BUT you get a cookie for bigger picture thinking.

Fixed the link for you http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

The reports show chlorimines are present, I am not telling anyone to buy anything but as mentioned in Randy's articles we have to keep up with the cartridges in our units and replace them routinely. Randy mentioned "The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing." We are ok with regular carbon blocks but most likely they need replacement more often in this area.

 

[ichthyman]

LOL, I knew Ted C would find this. If you don't listen to the mean ole ichthyman then listen to Ted. You've been bamboozled by a phantom menace of clever marketing.

 

[Ted_C]

if you ever want to know how to troll me - talking about chloramines and marketing is the way to get to me

 

[Ted_C]

As for testing - the only way I know of is measuring total chlorine. Never done it though - so I dont know the procedures. I'd imagine measure your input water and your output water (or RO waste water) and do some math to see how much total chlorine is going to your DI.

 

[ganjero]

... You've been bamboozled by a phantom menace of clever marketing.

Is this a general comment or to some one specific?

 

[ichthyman]

Fixed the link for you http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

The reports show chlorimines are present, I am not telling anyone to buy anything but as mentioned in Randy's articles we have to keep up with the cartridges in our units and replace them routinely. He mentioned "The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing." We are ok with regular carbon blocks but most likely they need replacement more often in this area.

Thanks for the fix, I blame Randy.

Not sure your point. The point to Randy's articles including Ted and my posts, is that you are sufficiently protected without the use of specialized chloramine reducing cartridges provided you don't neglect the RO/DI system or use bottom quality cartridges. Yes, protection can be lost if a system is neglected but that is not our point.

Is this a general comment or to some one specific?

This is a general statement to anyone who thinks specialized chloramine reducing cartridges must be used to achieve protection because of, IMO, clever marketing. Unless you're in the fish business and advocating the use of said cartridges then no slight could be directed towards you. Even then, you'd need to be knowingly deceiving others to earn my ire.

 

[ganjero]

Thanks for the fix, I blame Randy.

Not sure your point. The point to Randy's articles including Ted and my posts, is that you are sufficiently protected without the use of specialized chloramine reducing cartridges[ provided you don't neglect the RO/DI system or use bottom quality cartridges. Yes, protection can be lost if a system is neglected but that is not our point.



This is a general statement to anyone who thinks specialized chloramine reducing cartridges must be used to achieve protection because of, IMO, clever marketing. Unless you're in the fish business and advocating the use of said cartridges then no slight could be directed towards you. Even then, you'd need to be knowingly deceiving others to earn my ire.

I agree that you do not need anything marketed specific for chloramines.
I also feel my point was clear, which was about not neglecting your RO/DI unit. I was pointing out that per the reports I posted there are chlorimines in the water supply in this area, which reinforces that neglecting your RO/DI (or going cheap in quality ) can cause issues worse than an algae outbreak.

 

[ichthyman]

Then we agree!

Have a cookie!!

 

[gambitcobra]

I can solve everyones worries here. I will sell my water to everyone and help pay for this beast. LOL

 

[Fuzzone99]

As for testing - the only way I know of is measuring total chlorine. Never done it though - so I dont know the procedures. I'd imagine measure your input water and your output water (or RO waste water) and do some math to see how much total chlorine is going to your DI.

Certainly an option Ted C. Although there should NEVER be any Cl2 (Chlorine) going to your DI. Or your RO for that matter. Cl2 test kits are readily available. Although there are test strips for Cl2, they aren't sensitive enough for our application. Look for a colorimetric kit that is using DPD as the reagent, or using a titration (drop count) test method with Thiosulphate. Either of these methods will measure low level (<0.25mg/L) chlorine along with any chloramines. (Although the DPD kit is much more sensitive) Although there are ways to differentiate between the various types of chlorines and chloramines, for our purposes, Total Amount of either are all we need to know, and that is what these kits will give without further manipulation. Any measurable levels of Cl2 or chloramines (in the tank) are not good. Any decent RO membrane that is properly working will remove chlorine/chloramines) without the use of any DI resin, but the question becomes for how long. Chlorine (oxidizers) rapidly deteriorate the RO membrane, thus rapidly (think hours or maybe days depending on flow) decreasing performance. Hence the carbon block in front of it. That is the primary job of the carbon block in this particular application. To remove chlorine/chloramines from the source water prior to RO. It will remove some organics as well, but the primary reason that it is on 99.9% of systems is due to the chlorine/Chloramines in the source water. The RO then purifies the feed water, and it is finally polished by the DI resin. That is why some people may not utilize DI. Their systems may not require it (eg;FOWLR, Softy tanks that perform large, regular H2O changes). You could even go without RO if you wanted, and only use DI, but will have to replace the DI resin quite frequently. You will need a carbon block on any of these systems if they are using municipal water.I have been in dozens of labs that run DI only for house systems providing 100's of gallons/day of 16+ megohm water with nothing but ion exchange resins (and carbon prefilters). Overall, the best setups for high quality finished water will most likely utilize 2 carbon blocks. The new system will have 2 new blocks with #1 recieving source water and then flowing onto #2. When the maintenance cycle is done, #1 block gets pitched, #2 block is moved to the #1 position, and a new block is put into #2. With this type of setup, you still only need replace one block at a time, but you have the added protection of #2 "backing up" #1 against breakthrough.


Hope I haven't muddied the waters with this diatribe. Feel free to ask for clarification if any of this wasn't clear.
YMMV

Cheers!

 

[sinful]

Anyone have the dumbed down version?

 

[robthorn]

I always run 2 di canisters. When the first shows 1ppm I remove it. Move the second to where the first was and put a new one in the second housing.
We have had chloromines for at least 10 years in Pinellas.

Wouldn't that monster need to be about 10 ft long at minimum and the water run real slow through it to start to break the bond? I am old and forgetful. Don't scold me if I am wrong.

 

[robthorn]

I forgot somethhing OBlio,

OF COURSE YOU ARE CRAZY. No offense but we all are for being in this crazy hobby.