Am I Sentenced To A Life Without Parole With These Flatworms?
- Thread starter smiller
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Salt Creep
Premium Member
Well, they don't have naked gills so we can't call them nudibrachs, can we? 
They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits.
I forgot to mention that they poop big wads of orange slime now and then, and the slime seems to be toxic. I had a mushroom that got pooped on that shriveled up and died. I guess it's the flatworm toxins all concentrated in the poop.
Ken
They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits. I forgot to mention that they poop big wads of orange slime now and then, and the slime seems to be toxic. I had a mushroom that got pooped on that shriveled up and died. I guess it's the flatworm toxins all concentrated in the poop.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Well, they don't have naked gills so we can't call them nudibrachs, can we?
They kind of remind me of two-tailed black weiner dogs wearing neon-blue trimmed wet suits.Ah... to each his own with similies.
Technically, they are bubble shells and they have a small internal shell, which no nudibranch has.
Also their guts are rather significantly different from nudibranchs.
That observation about the slime is a good one. Might be a good idea to remove it when you see it. I would bet they also concentrate some of the toxins in their own tissues. Species in the same genus found on the US Pacific coast are toxic to some fish (those guys eat nudibranchs, by the by).
Hey Doc,
Do I have your permission to quote you on this thread for my web site?
These threads don't stay here forever and too many times, I read a thread, asking a question and I can't always recall exactly what the suggested resolution was, in all cases. Sometimes, it all seems like too much information!
What I'm trying to do, is put together a "Common Marine Annoyances & Solutions" webpage. If at best, I could refer back to the web page, should some of these questions pop up on other boards in the future.
Thanks,
Smitty
Do I have your permission to quote you on this thread for my web site?
These threads don't stay here forever and too many times, I read a thread, asking a question and I can't always recall exactly what the suggested resolution was, in all cases. Sometimes, it all seems like too much information!
What I'm trying to do, is put together a "Common Marine Annoyances & Solutions" webpage. If at best, I could refer back to the web page, should some of these questions pop up on other boards in the future.
Thanks,
Smitty
smiller
Premium Member
Dr. Ron,
I put the two slugs in the tank last Wed. evening. So far they have come close to eliminating all the flatworms in the front half of the tank (127 gallon). And beleive me it wasn't just a few! They have not explored the back of the tank yet for some reason but I'm sure their search will take them there. They also have not been interested in climbing the rock. Maybe because they haven't had to.
It is interesting that after I would siphon the flatworms only a day or two later it looked as though there were as many there as before. Now they keep those areas quite clean. But I wonder if after they come close to exterminating them how long one of them could survive on the limited amount still in the tank? I'm sure 100% eradication is impossible, and it does take only one to start the process again. At this rate I will need to look for a new home for one of them soon. Hopefully someone in my area will want to buy one.
BTW I am running carbon and a Poly-Filter full time to possibly take some of the waste out of the water. Will this help?
I can share some more interesting observations about these creatures with you if you are interested. Is the picture above a mating or "safety in numbers" sleeping position? They do this often.
Steve
I put the two slugs in the tank last Wed. evening. So far they have come close to eliminating all the flatworms in the front half of the tank (127 gallon). And beleive me it wasn't just a few! They have not explored the back of the tank yet for some reason but I'm sure their search will take them there. They also have not been interested in climbing the rock. Maybe because they haven't had to.
It is interesting that after I would siphon the flatworms only a day or two later it looked as though there were as many there as before. Now they keep those areas quite clean. But I wonder if after they come close to exterminating them how long one of them could survive on the limited amount still in the tank? I'm sure 100% eradication is impossible, and it does take only one to start the process again. At this rate I will need to look for a new home for one of them soon. Hopefully someone in my area will want to buy one.
BTW I am running carbon and a Poly-Filter full time to possibly take some of the waste out of the water. Will this help?
I can share some more interesting observations about these creatures with you if you are interested. Is the picture above a mating or "safety in numbers" sleeping position? They do this often.
Steve
Agu
Premium Member
I also received two of the slugs on thursday. I put them into the insump refugium first so I could observe them. They do eat flatworms !! They are also capable of going over/through barriers. They got into the pump return area of the sump either by climbing over a 1" barrier or going through a 1/4" hole. Fortunately I had securely covered the pump intake with a sponge or both of them would now be slug puree. I'd suggest covering all pump and powerhead intakes with sponges prior to introducing them to your tank.
It appears they eat the flatworms and then settle in for a nap. After clearing out a large group of flatworms one slug stopped on the substrate for a couple of hours without moving. Next time I checked it was gone. They do not appear to be nocturnal as they cruise out in the open with the mh lighting on.
Agu
It appears they eat the flatworms and then settle in for a nap. After clearing out a large group of flatworms one slug stopped on the substrate for a couple of hours without moving. Next time I checked it was gone. They do not appear to be nocturnal as they cruise out in the open with the mh lighting on.
Agu
If all else fails you could do a freshwater dip of the whole tank. It was completely successful in a tank that was taken over by flaworms. It will take all day to do and requires much preparation. The key to not destroying some sensitive corals was to adjust the freshwater to match Alk. and pH of the main tank.
For more info email me at BurnNSpy@aol.com
BurnNSpy
For more info email me at BurnNSpy@aol.com
BurnNSpy
Agu
Premium Member
Dr Ron,
If anyone is looking for further info about these slugs I highly recommend this link. Also, it has an excellent pic.
http://www.seaslugforum.net/chelvar.htm
Agu
If anyone is looking for further info about these slugs I highly recommend this link. Also, it has an excellent pic.
http://www.seaslugforum.net/chelvar.htm
Agu
smiller
Premium Member
simonh,
I will post some info in the morning. I am a little pressed for time today.
cat23,
I consider myself on parole as of now since I haven't had to siphon for a week. Still have a long way to go. I'm not out of the woods yet. I don't want to go back to striped sunlight. The type of info to come out of this thread is one of the reasons Reef Central has no equal! Thanks to all!!
I will post some info in the morning. I am a little pressed for time today.
cat23,
I consider myself on parole as of now since I haven't had to siphon for a week. Still have a long way to go. I'm not out of the woods yet. I don't want to go back to striped sunlight. The type of info to come out of this thread is one of the reasons Reef Central has no equal! Thanks to all!!
smiller
Premium Member
Here are some comments and observations on the Chelidonura varians.
I ordered them for Wed. morning delivery but because of a zip code error they didn't get floated in the tank until 7:50pm. I wondered if they would be alive. They were, but since I had no idea how hearty they were I floated them for 15 minutes, added 50% water for another 15 and released them to remove them from their yellowish stained water. The second they touched the bottom they were on the hunt.
The area along the mouth has a line of what looks like small bristles that run the length of the head. They act as sensors. When they touch a flatworm the head quickly jerks left or right and in a flash their long tongue (for lack of the proper term) comes out and grabs the planaria and continues on, never missing a beat. The planaria know trouble is on the way and will often try to run.
They will eat until their body looks as though it is going to explode. Then they will stop and rest for anywhere from an hour to several hours. Sometimes they will curl up together. I'm not sure if that is some kind of mating ritual or not.
So far they have not left the front half of the tank. they especially like the sand along the glass. As they need more food I'm sure they will move toward the back. They definitely prefer the sand over the rock as they have shown little interest in climbing it past a few inches. They seem to hesitate to leave their territory.
Sometimes when they climb they will leave a web-like substance which they hold to. They can drop slowly from a rock by releasing the web like a safety rope. When they sleep on the glass they will actually be connected by the web and not firmly touching the glass. Some nights they will use this to build a cocoon around part of their body. When I have removed it the next day I found it is thick and gel-like.
So far so good but still a long row to hoe. As these slugs eat flatworms only I would see this as something that will have to be repeated from time to time as they will run out of enough planaria to survive but could not possibly find every one. Hopefully they will be available in the future. It would be a good system to find some local folks with the same situation and pass them around.
Thanks again for all the info.
I ordered them for Wed. morning delivery but because of a zip code error they didn't get floated in the tank until 7:50pm. I wondered if they would be alive. They were, but since I had no idea how hearty they were I floated them for 15 minutes, added 50% water for another 15 and released them to remove them from their yellowish stained water. The second they touched the bottom they were on the hunt.
The area along the mouth has a line of what looks like small bristles that run the length of the head. They act as sensors. When they touch a flatworm the head quickly jerks left or right and in a flash their long tongue (for lack of the proper term) comes out and grabs the planaria and continues on, never missing a beat. The planaria know trouble is on the way and will often try to run.
They will eat until their body looks as though it is going to explode. Then they will stop and rest for anywhere from an hour to several hours. Sometimes they will curl up together. I'm not sure if that is some kind of mating ritual or not.
So far they have not left the front half of the tank. they especially like the sand along the glass. As they need more food I'm sure they will move toward the back. They definitely prefer the sand over the rock as they have shown little interest in climbing it past a few inches. They seem to hesitate to leave their territory.
Sometimes when they climb they will leave a web-like substance which they hold to. They can drop slowly from a rock by releasing the web like a safety rope. When they sleep on the glass they will actually be connected by the web and not firmly touching the glass. Some nights they will use this to build a cocoon around part of their body. When I have removed it the next day I found it is thick and gel-like.
So far so good but still a long row to hoe. As these slugs eat flatworms only I would see this as something that will have to be repeated from time to time as they will run out of enough planaria to survive but could not possibly find every one. Hopefully they will be available in the future. It would be a good system to find some local folks with the same situation and pass them around.
Thanks again for all the info.
Hi Folks,
Breef's suggestion is an excellent one. There is likely to be a classical predator/prey cycle set up in the tanks, where the slugs will eat all the worms they can find (which won't be all the worms) and then the slugs will die of starvation. Shortly thereafter the worms will start to reappear and in a few weeks/months you will have the problem again. It would be good to have some of the predators in reserve.
Breef's suggestion is an excellent one. There is likely to be a classical predator/prey cycle set up in the tanks, where the slugs will eat all the worms they can find (which won't be all the worms) and then the slugs will die of starvation. Shortly thereafter the worms will start to reappear and in a few weeks/months you will have the problem again. It would be good to have some of the predators in reserve.
smiller
Premium Member
The question I would have is what is the minimum feeding requirements for these guys? I'm sure they don't need as much as they eat now. The amount they eat would make me wonder if only two tanks rotated as you say would be enough to keep them alive. Once the first tank is close to clear going with only one would probably be the best route.
A flatworm tank. Just when you think you've heard it all.
A flatworm tank. Just when you think you've heard it all.
Jake
Active member
I have read that some nudibranches, that eat prey with symbiotic algae, incorperate the algae into their tissue and derive some nutrients from photosynthesis thereafter. Is this factual Dr. Ron and if so is their any information on this species assimilating the flatworms zoozanthelle to supplement it's own nutrition? If so, could lighting play an important part in keeping these nudibranches alive in the tank for a period after the initial flatworm crash to pick up stragglers?
Jake
Jake
Hi,
Jake, some corrections are in order.
I have read that some nudibranches, that eat prey with symbiotic algae, incorperate the algae into their tissue and derive some nutrients from photosynthesis thereafter.
Actually this occurs in sacoglossan opisthobranchs. Although hobbyists tend to call these animals nudibranchs, they are actually very different animals (about as closely related to nudibranchs as dogs are to cows, for example). They don't incorporate the algae into their tissues. They digest all of the algae, with the exception of the subcellular photosyntetic bodies (called chloroplasts). These are what they incorporate into their bodies. Although this sounds like the use of zooxanthellae, it is really very different.
The animals that eat the flatworms are also NOT nudibrachs but a type of snail referred to as a "bubble shell" (or cephalaspidean), and again these are only distantly related to nudibranchs. But, they are probably even more distantly related to the sacoglossans and have no capability of utiizing either the chlorplasts or zooxanthellae, they simply digest 'em all.
To keep these animals alive, they will need flatworms as food.
smiller - Yes, you would have to keep some flatworms going to keep the Chelidoneura alive. Just as the folks who culture Berghia for control of Aiptasia need to culture the anemone, to keep these slugs going, you will need to provide them with the appropriate food.
However, you will only need to keep a few adults alive, as long as you can culture the larvae. The larvae will need the flatworm food as soon as they settle as well. My feeling, however, if you know other folks in your area with the flatworms, getting some to feed the slugs should not be too difficult.
Jake, some corrections are in order.
I have read that some nudibranches, that eat prey with symbiotic algae, incorperate the algae into their tissue and derive some nutrients from photosynthesis thereafter.
Actually this occurs in sacoglossan opisthobranchs. Although hobbyists tend to call these animals nudibranchs, they are actually very different animals (about as closely related to nudibranchs as dogs are to cows, for example
). They don't incorporate the algae into their tissues. They digest all of the algae, with the exception of the subcellular photosyntetic bodies (called chloroplasts). These are what they incorporate into their bodies. Although this sounds like the use of zooxanthellae, it is really very different.The animals that eat the flatworms are also NOT nudibrachs but a type of snail referred to as a "bubble shell" (or cephalaspidean), and again these are only distantly related to nudibranchs. But, they are probably even more distantly related to the sacoglossans and have no capability of utiizing either the chlorplasts or zooxanthellae, they simply digest 'em all.
To keep these animals alive, they will need flatworms as food.
smiller - Yes, you would have to keep some flatworms going to keep the Chelidoneura alive. Just as the folks who culture Berghia for control of Aiptasia need to culture the anemone, to keep these slugs going, you will need to provide them with the appropriate food.
However, you will only need to keep a few adults alive, as long as you can culture the larvae. The larvae will need the flatworm food as soon as they settle as well. My feeling, however, if you know other folks in your area with the flatworms, getting some to feed the slugs should not be too difficult.
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