Ammonia Poisoning - Too Late??

[mess7777]

Hi all,

I am hoping to hear from someone with experience. My yellow tang is in QT for ich. As I had to do it in a hurry the QT tank was not cycled so I am having trouble with Ammonia. I have been regularly dosing with Prime and now alpha to keep it from being toxic to my fish.

Unfortunately, it seems I am losing the battle, ammonia continues to spike. One of my yellow tangs last night displayed red markings by its side fins and lethergically sitting on the bottom of the tank. I immediately did a 50% water change and again dosed with alpha.

This morning it is still alive but was pretty much lying listless on it's side. I nearly put it out of it's misery but as I put it into a seperate container for a few minutes the red coloring seemed to subside, although maybe wishful thinking.

I put it back into the QT tank and will see when I get home tonight what becomes of it.

Has anyone seen a fish recover from this type of situation? I am worried that it will die early today and simply poison the other fish when it releases ammonia from dying. It makes me start to think I should have let them fight ich in the DT instead of this QT without a cycled filter.

Wow, really doubting everything at this point, not happy about probably losing at least one of my fish after only 6 weeks. After all, if this one is poisoned, my others are probably in trouble too. It's not so much the $150 dollars I am worried about losing, it's the fact that my bad husbandry killed them. ......and all that while trying to do the "right" thing for the ich.

 

[mess7777]

bump, anyone care to chime in? Hoping to hear stories of miraculous recoveries.

 

[djkms]

First off I want to say sorry for your troubles. It is really disheartening to deal with stuff like this.

To answer your question I have seen fish recover from Ammonia poisoning. I had a buddy whos tank crashed so in a hurry he put everything in a smaller QT tank. That tank then crashed and had a ammonia reading of 4ppm. In a panic he called me up to come rescue everything in the QT tank. There were about 10 corals and 1 flasher wrasse. When I got to his house every coral was bleached and the wrasse was on the bottom corner of the tank and curled into a U shape. I quickly put everything from the QT tank into buckets and rushed it to my house (about a hour away). The wrasse stayed in the U shape the whole time and its breathing was really really slow. Honestly I thought the poor wrasse wasn't going to make it. After about 3 days in my system the wrasse came out, started feeding and has since made a full recovery It is actually the wrasse listed in my signature. His name is Rescue. Also, every single coral he gave me also made a full recovery and is doing well. This all happened about 6 months ago.

Things don't sound good for you though since not only is it ammonia poisoning its also dealing with ich. If it were me I would get in contact with a LFS and see if they have a established QT tank to help bring your little guy back. If not a LFS maybe a reefer in your local club has something established.

Don't get discouraged though. We all make mistakes, no matter how long we have been doing this or how "pro" we think we are.

Moving forward though here is my suggestion. Buy a cheap $20 aquaclear HOB filter. Then buy a box of ceramic beads (some manufactures call them "bio media") and stick them in a bag and throw them in your sump. After about a month it will colonize good with bacteria so if you ever have to setup a QT tank again you have a established bacteria colony ready to go. Dont skimp on the beads either. I would suggest using enough to fill the whole aquaclear with beads.

Some might suggest using a sponge but IME this is not good. I tried the sponge approach once and it traps too much detritus and the sponge itself can cause a ammonia spike in the QT. The beads do a better job not collecting detritus.

Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[stingythingy45]

There's a very good chance it will die.
Listless is not a good thing.I lost a fish years back(Scopas Tang) that did the same thing.
No ammonia,just the gills infected with ich.
So what did you do to combat the ich rather than move the fish into a QT?
Amequel works but water needs to be changed 20% evey couple days anyways.
I don't even think Prime does anything,but that's just me.
Water changes are your only weopon right now with ammonia.
If it becomes bad you can move some LR from the DT and run hypo salinity for the ich.
But a refractor is a must to do that.

 

[mess7777]

I am currently running hyposalinity for the ich. I read that all live rock should be removed as the cysts can hide in there and affect the effectiveness of the treatment. Of course my tank was not cycled in advance, thus the problem. I think I will need to start doing daily water changes until things settle down, and hopefully I don't lose the other 4 remaining fish.

I guess there is a small chance it will live but wow according to its behavior I would be surprised if it's breathing when I get home tonight. I just hope it doesn't die too soon and nuke my other tank inhabitants before i get back.

These are tough, expensive lessons to learn.

I am already running the aquaclear filter , but with a non seeded sponge. I like the ceramic beads idea, seems cleaner. Water changes can take care of the detrius.

I believe I relied too much on Prime, I should have been doing more water changes as well. I actually heard after a few days the toxicity returns if it isn't removed through bacteria or water changes.

Bummed out big time today guys, thanks for the advice. :thumbdown

 

[djkms]

If it becomes bad you can move some LR from the DT and run hypo salinity for the ich.

Are you sure thats a good idea? If there is unbound ammonia in the QT, that could potentially kill any life on the rock further adding to the problem. If the ammonia doesnt kill the organisms on the rock the hypo certainly can..

 

[stingythingy45]

Are you sure thats a good idea? If there is unbound ammonia in the QT, that could potentially kill any life on the rock further adding to the problem. If the ammonia doesnt kill the organisms on the rock the hypo certainly can..

It would be no different than adding biomedia(ceramic).Some bacteria will die back but it will rebound.
Even a cup of sand from the old tank will help.
Is there anything in this QT tank that bacteria can colonize?
Even PVC pieces for the fish to hide behind(reduce stress)?
What specific gravity are you running at?Anything higher than 1.008 will do very little.

***Also,if live rock is moved into the hos. tank it will need to be dried out and sterilized before using in a DT again.

 

[mess7777]

Is there anything in this QT tank that bacteria can colonize?

yes I have a HOB aquaclear filter with sponge


Even PVC pieces for the fish to hide behind(reduce stress)?

yes I do have several for them to hide, also some clay flower pots
What specific gravity are you running at?Anything higher than 1.008 will do very little.

I am running at 1.008 for the past 5 days. All ich symptoms dissapeared but unfortunately ammonia appeared.

***Also,if live rock is moved into the hos. tank it will need to be dried out and sterilized before using in a DT again.
I did have some LR but removed it after reading the die off could cause an even worse ammonia spike I removed it. Not to mention the rock losing it's effectiveness due to less bacteria. I also believe the logic that it gives the ich more hiding places where there may be more favorable conditions for reproduction.


One other major mistake I made is rinsing the sponge with fresh water, this probably is killing any good bacteria that have developed.

 

[stingythingy45]

One other major mistake I made is rinsing the sponge with fresh water, this probably is killing any good bacteria that have developed.

Yeah,this definitely didn't help.
Just so you know.When I first got into the hobby I introduced crypto into my tank that was on a Scopas Tang.
The tang died and I removed all my fish to a 20L hospital with 1.008 sg. that I brought down slowly over a week.
algae blenny
2 clowns
blue devil damsel
YT damsel
Coral Beauty

The tank cycled with the fish in there.I did water changes every other day.
My only loss was the LMB.
It can be done.:beer:

 

[mess7777]

Well hopefully I can escape with only one loss. I do have my hyposalinity log in the disease forum, but felt this situation required a little extra attention.

Thanks again for your response, this site really is a great resource.

 

[mess7777]

Arrived home to a much happier looking fish!

No more red spot by the fin and swimming fairly normally. Not 100% normal, but compared to this morning looking fantastic.

Now I just have to keep up on the water changes.

Hopefully it pulls through it all here!

 

[djkms]

That is awesome news!!! Keep us posted :dance::bounce3::dance:

 

[mess7777]

Follow up for anyone mildly interested. Yellow Tang made a full recovery, at least for now, after a couple days it started eating again. Now I have trouble distinguishing which one was the sick one, guess that is a good thing!

 

[maroun.c]

Glad it all worked outin the end.
Keep in mind that with Hyposalinity you can keep your carbon running which helps a lot in processing any thing in the water. I even keep my skimmer running just to aerate the water or just use an airstone. lots of surface agitaion with a couple of pumps. I have new bioball that I place in my DT sump (never reput in tank after tehy´ve been in Q tank) which I place in the Q tanks filter. then every few days I will either add a bacetria liquid additive (MB7, Prodibio biodigest... ) to help reseed teh bacteria that died with the salinity drop or with copper addition. That theoratically helps a bit. My Q tank never cycled before I decided to add a sand bed to it. Sand bed makes it more difficult to maintain therapeutic doses of Copper however if you´´re treating with hyposalinity it is not that bad to have it. Some people will stay that cysts will stay in it, it´s a risk I´m will ing to tak for more safety filtration wise. Cysts will stay even on teh glass and I´m sure no one is religiously syphoning his Q tank for those every day...

 

[blue736]

glad he made it! at the end of this, you will be a pro at the QT process. just keep @ it, and always do a WC if you ever see a trace of ammonia/nitrite in QT. :thumbsup: