Ammonium Chloride and oxidizer (KMnO4), to grow corals, less water changes, and very low organo-phosphates:

369Augold

New member
The following was only slightly discussed back in I think 2015, while what was then discussed mostly was to help grow corals. However, now after years of not being able to keep organo- phosphate down and not being able to keep it down consistently without starving fish, smothering green micro-algae, expensive "so-called" phosphate chemical removers and special equipment, we have some Great news to share!!!PHOSPHATES??? Grow it out with Ammonium chloride!!! This is the same ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) used to start cycling fresh and/or marine aquariums ., but at a different concentration , added daily!!! Now the story: Up until six (6) months ago all of our four (4) main reef aquariums (+/-)110 gallons, where we had half dead corals (Acroporas , Montiporas, other sps and some soft ), were covered with THICK green algae and cyanobacteria, etc. And , we could not in 53 plus years ever seem to grow pink coralline algae. The only very short time that we could ever even start to grow coralline was when the aquarium was relatively new (1st 6 months or less), starved the fish, many dollars worth of phosphate re-moving pads, granules, etc. ,and unending work with constant water changes (Sound familiar??). Then, 6 months ago, after thinking about a sentence that Julian Sprung had written in " The Reef aquarium ".. "The concentration of ammonium (nitrogen) out over a Real live coral reef is very low " !!!!And phosphates are low enough to allow corals and coralline algae to prosper! The nitrogen in ammonium along with phosphates (Phosphorus) and potassium (K)form the three (3) main plant nutrients (N_P_K) for all plants be it cotton, soy beans, amazon swords, zooxanthellate (coral micro-algae), chaetomorpha (a macro-algae), etc. Now, however, we add ammonium chloride daily and all un-wanted hairy algae, etc. have nearly totally disappeared and the pink coralline grows abundantly , as do the acroporas , clams, and all other corals. The corals can make their own amino acids now that they have the raw materials to do so ! We grow macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, Rhodophyta dragons tongue ) at a very fast rate ( with fairly bright light ) , out competing the green micro-algaes for phosphate, and all reef tanks look like real coralline encrusted reef rock! And, now we can really feed our fish, etc, plenty of food without resulting in slow death to especially sps corals. All of our customers are reporting the same results!... If you would like more information you can Google the phone number of Marine World Tropical Fish in Hot Springs, AR ..... So PHOSPHATES,??? Just "grow "them out of the way with ammonium chloride!!..... Addendum #1 to the above: The "phosphate" that gives the most trouble (Organo-phosphate), of course, comes from feeding animals (fish, etc.) in a closed system (aquarium), , however, most " "phosphate test kits) only test for " Inorganic-phosphates"!!! Inorganic-phosphates can "test" nearly zero (0), and yet the micro-algae and dead acroporas (etc.) still persist!!! Now, we use ammonium chloride to "UP" the Nitrogen ( corals, clams, etc. would rather use ammonium , than nitrate if they could have their choice).Now the macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, etc.) can grow rapidly "without " cycle dying" ", and undoubtly bring the "Organo-phosphates) way, way down to the point where the pink and purple coralline algaes grow constantly. That's why I like to say that the best "test kit" for low phosphates is whether or not the coralline is growing!!!!...Addendum #2 : Something else that might help most of us who do NOT like changing large volumes of water and it really enhances the amount of skim mate in the cup of our "Protein Skimmers"; is to use a little daily of an oxidizer known as KMnO4 (Potassium permanganate) !!.A person could also use Ozone, but the ozone generator and regulating equipment might hit the wallet kind of hard. We use a small amount daily of KMnO4 , it helps greatly to oxidize and lower the overall amount of organic compounds that come from feeding animals (fish, etc.); then the oxidized organics can "attach" themselves to the tiny air bubbles in a protein skimmer , resulting in much more dark skim mate ; there by really cleaning the water (some people (including us) employ an ORP meter to keep a check on the water " oxidation-reduction -potential" conditions , with +- 400 being excellent , indicating very low organics. In addition to the relatively unseen organic compounds are the Results of high organics (Cyanobacteria, i.e. that ARE seen),to which KmnO4 oxidizes the "Feed" (organics) that feeds the Cyanobacteria, there by "starving" it of nutrients and then it gradually fades away! . !!! KENT Marine Co. use to bottle a product called Polyox, (KMnO4), but it seems to be out of production now. We make our own solution of KMnO4 , that we use and sell. .... Addendum #3::: Ammonium vs. AMMONIA??? Several people have inquired , if it is Ammonia that I'm writing about to use in a reef tank.... Answer: NO!!!. It is AMMONIUM that is relatively non-Toxic especially in the relatively small ppm. dose that we use at a common Reef aquarium pH of 8.3. Ammonia can occur (+- 10 % ) but the pH would have to be increased to a much higher pH than 8.3 . Relatively Non-toxic Ammonium and very toxic Ammonia are pH dependent, so just keep the pH at 8.3 and all should be well. Call me at Marine World, Hot Springs ,AR if I can be of any further help...... Addendum #4: Someone just ask a question about their corals closing up after dosing, and then reopening later? I too , have also had corals to close , especially after adding too much KMno4, so I then take the hint and start using half doses or less from that time forward . Also, I try to squirt the very dose KMnO4
into the polyester detritus socks or in front of the polyester filter (HOB) cartridges, or even into the throat of the protein skimmer , so that the KMno4 has plenty of time to dissipate , before it can get to the corals.
 
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At what dosing rate Sean? What made you start?
I used to get a lot of chrysophytes but not any normal algaes ( no film, no hair, no coraline) and my nutrients were pretty much hovering around zero. This is my frag system with no fish. I originally just started with dosing Neonitro for nitrate and Reefroids kept the phosphates in there but I found it was always a seesaw battle of nitrate and phosphate countering each other. I decided ammonia made more sense than just dosing the end product because it would feed all levels of nitrifying bacteria, plus corals and some algae can directly utilize ammonia (and prefer it to nitrate according to something I read from RHF somewhere). Anyway, I just assumed slow and steady - 1 drop per 10 gallons with 6% hardware store ammonia (Old Country) and everything's been fine. Nitrates sit around 10ppm constant. This bottle of ammonia will last me years and is dirt cheap vs what I would spend dosing nitrate. I don't normally recommend ammonia even though it's been successful for me because I don't know if someone's going to OD their system and then say I told them to do it. :p
 
The following was only slightly discussed back in I think 2015, while what was then discussed mostly was to help grow corals. However, now after years of not being able to keep organo- phosphate down and not being able to keep it down consistently without starving fish, smothering green micro-algae, expensive "so-called" phosphate chemical removers and special equipment, we have some Great news to share!!!PHOSPHATES??? Grow it out with Ammonium chloride!!! This is same the ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) used to start cycling fresh and/or marine aquariums ., but at a different concentration added daily!!! Now the story: Up until six (6) months ago all of our four (4) main reef aquariums (+/-)110 gallons, where we had half dead corals (Acroporas , Montiporas, other sps and some soft ), were covered with THICK green algae and cyanobacteria, etc. And , we could not in 53 plus years ever seem to grow pink coralline algae. The only very short time that we could ever even start to grow coralline was when the aquarium was relatively new (1st 6 months or less), starved the fish, many dollars worth of phosphate re-moving pads, granules, etc. ,and unending work with constant water changes (Sound familiar??). Then, 6 months ago, after thinking about a sentence that Julian Sprung had written in " The Reef aquarium "...The concentration of ammonium (nitrogen) out over a Real live coral reef is very low !!!!And phosphates are low enough to allow corals and coralline algae to prosper! The nitrogen in ammonium along with phosphates (Phosphorus) and potassium (K)form the three (3) main plant nutrients (N_P_K) for all plants be it cotton, soy beans, amazon swords, zooxanthellate (coral micro-algae), chaetomorpha (a macro-algae), etc. Now, however, we add ammonium chloride daily and all un-wanted hairy algae, etc. have nearly totally disappeared and the pink coralline grows abundantly , as do the acroporas , clams, and all other corals. The corals can make their own amino acids now that they have the raw materials to do so ! We grow macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, Rhodophyta dragons tongue ) at a very fast rate ( with fairly bright light ) , out competing the green micro-algaes for phosphate, and all reef tanks look like real coralline encrusted reef rock! And, now we can really feed our fish, etc, plenty of food without resulting in slow death to especially sps corals. All of our customers are reporting the same results!... If you would like more information you can Google the phone number of Marine World Tropical Fish in Hot Springs, AR . So PHOSPHATES,??? Just "grow "them out of the way with ammonium chloride!!..... Addendum #1 to the above: The "phosphate" that gives the most trouble (Organo-phosphate), of course, comes from feeding animals (fish, etc.) in a closed system (aquarium), , however, most " "phosphate test kits) only test for " Inorganic-phosphates"!!! Inorganic-phosphates can "test" nearly zero (0), and yet the micro-algae and dead acroporas (etc.) still persist!!! Now, we use ammonium chloride to "UP" the Nitrogen ( corals, clams, etc. would rather use ammonium , than nitrate if they could have their choice).Now the macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, etc.) can grow rapidly "without dying" and undoubtly bring the "Organo-phosphates) way, way down to the point where the pink and purple coralline algaes grow constantly. That's why I like to say that the best "test kit" for low phosphates is whether or not the coralline is growing!!!!...Addendum #2 : Something else that might help most of us who do NOT like changing large volumes of water and it really enhances the amount of skim mate in the cup of our "Protein Skimmers"; is to use a little daily of an oxidizer known as KMnO4 (Potassium permanganate) !!.A person could also use Ozone, but the ozone generator and regulating equipment might hit the wallet kind of hard. We use a small amount daily of KMnO4 , it helps greatly to oxidize and lower the overall amount of organic compounds that come from feeding animals (fish, etc.); then the oxidized organics can "attach" themselves to the tiny air bubbles in a protein skimmer , resulting in much more dark skim mate ; there by really cleaning the water (some people (including us) employ an ORP meter to keep a check on the water oxidation-reduction conditions , with +- 400 being excellent , indicating very low organics. In addition to the relatively unseen organic compounds are the Results of high organics (Cyanobacteria, i.e. that ARE seen),to which KmnO4 oxidizes the "Feed" (organics) that feeds the Cyanobacteria, there by "starving" it of nutrients and then it gradually fades away! . !!! KENT Marine Co. use to bottle a product called Polyox, (KMnO4), but it seems to be out of production now. We make our own solution of KMnO4 , that we use and sell. .... Addendum #3::: Ammonium vs. AMMONIA??? Several people have inquired , if it is Ammonia that I'm writing about to use in a reef tank.... Answer: NO!!!. It is AMMONIUM that is non-Toxic at a common Reef aquarium pH of 8.3. Ammonia can occur, but at a totally different pH!!! Non-toxic Ammonium and very toxic Ammonia are pH dependent, so just keep the pH at 8.3 and all will be well. Call me at Marine World, Hot Springs ,AR if I can be of any further help.
I just started dosing ammonium chloride and potassium permanganate in my reef tank and just the ammonium chloride in my fish only. Thanks for the info. I'll be coming in the store this weekend to get some more of that red seaweed because my urchin ate most of what I got lol. He's in my other tank now. My corals close up when I dose, I assume that's ok and normal?
 
I just started dosing ammonium chloride and potassium permanganate in my reef tank and just the ammonium chloride in my fish only. Thanks for the info. I'll be coming in the store this weekend to get some more of that red seaweed because my urchin ate most of what I got lol. He's in my other tank now. My corals close up when I dose, I assume that's ok and normal?
Thanks for the great reply... Some times my corals close up also, but then open back up later, usually even more expanded. However, when I notice that reaction, I simply cut back to half doses and maintain that smaller dose , or even smaller for future doses. Thanks again!
 
My system is a year old and doing well now. I would say I get good growth and color on 90% of my acros. I do have a couple pieces that are pale, have stalled out, etc. I tested NO3 and PO4, and nitrates are very low and phosphate is higher than normal. NO3 is around 0.04 and PO4 is around 0.07. I have a good export system, and I think that could be most of the reason for low nitrates. I have a 50-gallon fuge that is 75% full of chaeto, a large skimmer, and a bioreactor. I have been broadcast feeding daily with benereef in hopes of raising nitrates, and after a week of feeding, my nitrates went from 0.06 to 0.04.

I also tested potassium last night, and it was much lower than I would like. Around 300 ppm, which could be why some color and growth are off. I dosed some KCI last night and will continue until potassium is around 400.

I'm just looking to try and get my numbers up, as I don't want to starve the corals. I am blasting it with 400W halides and T5, so I need them healthy so they can take all the light they can get.

What would you recommend to increase the nutrients? I have some ammonium bicarbonate on hand. Would you recommend just dosing that? Randy mentioned that bicarbonate would not directly impact the alkalinity of the system, whereas chloride would.
 
YES : The ammonium bicarbonate would be better to raise the nitrogen (N) level to keep from lowering the KH, And KCl would be a good idea to raise the potassium (K).Now, as to getting and keeping the phosphate (P) way, way, down (Grow it OUT ) with fast growing macro algae and soft corals of nearly All kinds (i.e. star polyp, anthelia and/or hard corals like Montipora capricornis, etc. ). And above all, be careful on the amount of fish food being fed , as most kinds are loaded with phosphates. As to raising and maintaining a good KH of between 8 and 12 and to add needed macro-elements and trace elements at the same time and in the exact reef water proportions of each element , I really like the relatively new product "All-for-Reef ". Which, I just add to each aquarium according to what the results of any common KH test kit reads between 8 and 12!!! Hope the above helps you . Thanks for asking!
 
Bump! Is anyone out there experimenting with this method?? I met the author (Len Randel) a week or so ago, and was very impressed by both his knowledge + store.

I'm primarily interested in the author's use of Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) that he doses. I sometimes recommend dosing H2O2 to deal with parasites in a reef environment. KMnO4 is an even stronger oxidizing agent, and Len is dosing this stuff directly into tanks with corals/inverts (all types) with no obvious ill-effects. He's using an ORP meter to monitor the dosing amounts/frequency.

Now, according to Noga there are issues with using potassium permanganate in SW:

Potassium permanganate is toxic in water with high pH, since manganese dioxide may precipitate onto the gills. Thus, it should not be used with caution in seawater. Potassium permanganate should not be mixed with formalin.

He's dosing KMnO4 manually and using the ORP meter to tweak the dosages for each system. Once that gets dialed in, I wonder how difficult it would be to get a dosing pump to "talk to" an ORP meter to automate the dosing. As I understand it, you can use ozone in conjunction with an ORP meter.

And as a side note (and so I don't forget), Len claims that Penguin BIO-Wheel HOB infuses more dissolved oxygen into the water and the biowheel media itself is capable of harboring more nitrifying bacteria (than other HOB filters.) If true (using a dissolved oxygen meter should solve this riddle), then this might be a better option for QT usage. Since medications tend to lower available oxygen in the water.
 
Bump! Is anyone out there experimenting with this method?? I met the author (Len Randel) a week or so ago, and was very impressed by both his knowledge + store.

I'm primarily interested in the author's use of Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) that he doses. I sometimes recommend dosing H2O2 to deal with parasites in a reef environment. KMnO4 is an even stronger oxidizing agent, and Len is dosing this stuff directly into tanks with corals/inverts (all types) with no obvious ill-effects. He's using an ORP meter to monitor the dosing amounts/frequency.

Now, according to Noga there are issues with using potassium permanganate in SW:



He's dosing KMnO4 manually and using the ORP meter to tweak the dosages for each system. Once that gets dialed in, I wonder how difficult it would be to get a dosing pump to "talk to" an ORP meter to automate the dosing. As I understand it, you can use ozone in conjunction with an ORP meter.

And as a side note (and so I don't forget), Len claims that Penguin BIO-Wheel HOB infuses more dissolved oxygen into the water and the biowheel media itself is capable of harboring more nitrifying bacteria (than other HOB filters.) If true (using a dissolved oxygen meter should solve this riddle), then this might be a better option for QT usage. Since medications tend to lower available oxygen in the water.

I am also interested in this as well. I've been dosing ammonium bicarbonate daily for some time now, and corals seem to be happy with it. I would like to know how to make the potassium permanganate solution and how much to dose into my system. I have read a few articles online, but I haven't been able to find a good dosing regimen for reef tanks or anything similar. I really like the KMno4 option because it seems to be effective against parasites and bad bacteria, which is a benefit to us reefers these days. Also, I read where peroxide is dosed after KMnO4 to neutralize it.

Most of what I have read is applied to KOI ponds, planted freshwater, and fish-only systems. I haven't come across many references to reef systems. According to what I've read, most benefit from dosing it, then dosing peroxide to neutralize it, and then performing a water change.
 
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