Amyloo Article

[oama]

Steve

Great Job on this article!

One other thing about IDing Amyloo. If you take a flashlight and shine it down onto the fish while looking through the glass of the tank, it will highlight the "sheen". If one does this to their fish often, the will become familiar with what looks normal, and be able to tell that something is very different when the "sheen" appears.

Also, some other behavioral clues... Head orientated into the current. Fish become distant to each other. As if they are keeping as far away as possible from another fish so that they has as much O2 ladden water as they can get. This happens both vertically and horizontally w/in the tank. Very classic sign in an aquaculture situation. All fish pointed in the same direction and equaly spaced through out the tank.

You mentioned the dipping method for a cure as cited in Montgomery-Brock et al, 2001. Though you and many others shudder at this, I have used something similiar. We use to call it the "Dip and Run" Method. Works great with trematodes. Though I have not used it for Amyloo, I do not see that it would not work. Of course, at the time, I was at a research facility, and had dozens of tanks availible to do this method. Most hobbists do not have that capibility.

I plan on trying to get a video of the FW dip test to post here on RC. So that people can see the "dust devil" form and the color/size of it. Just gotta have a camera at the time I see Amyloo again.

Keep up the Great Work.

Douglas, aka Oama

 

[Steven Pro]

One other thing about IDing Amyloo. If you take a flashlight and shine it down onto the fish while looking through the glass of the tank, it will highlight the "sheen". If one does this to their fish often, the will become familiar with what looks normal, and be able to tell that something is very different when the "sheen" appears.

This reminds me of the way freshwater ubber fish geeks train their prize specimens for shows. For those of you that don't know, there are fish shows, similar to dogs shows/contests. The hobbyists trains their fish with food to show off when lit with a flashlight. That way when the judges come around and look in their tank, the fish gets very active and displays.

Also, some other behavioral clues... Head orientated into the current. Fish become distant to each other. As if they are keeping as far away as possible from another fish so that they has as much O2 ladden water as they can get. This happens both vertically and horizontally w/in the tank. Very classic sign in an aquaculture situation. All fish pointed in the same direction and equaly spaced through out the tank.

I have never seen this behavior myself, but thinking and visualizing it, I can see where alarm bells would ring in my head. Very unusualy behavior and another great tip!

You mentioned the dipping method for a cure as cited in Montgomery-Brock et al, 2001. Though you and many others shudder at this, I have used something similiar. We use to call it the "Dip and Run" Method. Works great with trematodes. Though I have not used it for Amyloo, I do not see that it would not work. Of course, at the time, I was at a research facility, and had dozens of tanks availible to do this method. Most hobbists do not have that capibility.

I want to give a pat on the back to every hobbyist that has one quarantine tank. Asking them to setup two or more properly just won't happen, even tough it would be nice. I have several for quarantining customers' fish before sale and have employed the dip and transfer method without incidence, but most others reading this article are going to dump the fish back into the infested aquarium.

I plan on trying to get a video of the FW dip test to post here on RC. So that people can see the "dust devil" form and the color/size of it. Just gotta have a camera at the time I see Amyloo again.

Iam sure images or video would be extremely helpful to many people out there.

 

[TerryB]

Hi Steven,

You might be interested to know that I have corresponded with Doctors Angelo Colorni and Edward Noga about my hypothesis for treating Amyloodinium with the transfer method that I outlined in part five of my series on Cryptocaryon irritans in Advance Advanced Online magazine. Both of them were encouraging stating that they felt that the idea should work, at least in theory.

I understand your concerns relating to the stress of transfer and handling. However, I detailed some steps to minimize the stress and I did not recommend repeated FW dips. I do agree with the value of an initial dip to relieve the fish of some parasites before beginning treatment with copper or chloroqiune.

I lean toward the use of chloroquine when available because it can give some relief within hours from attached parasites. Copper can actually makes things worse in the beginning of treatment. The fish are already having difficulty with respiration because of parasites in the gills. Adding copper to the water exacerbates the situation by causing hyper production of mucus. Copper is also immuno-suppressive so secondary bacterial or fungal infections are more likely to become a factor.

Terry B

 

[Steven Pro]

I figured I should first throw up a link to your article where you detail your hyposalinity transfer method, http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm That way others interested could take a look for themselves. Secondly, I think your modification of the transfer method has merit, but for the time being I am sticking with the daily water change protocol I described here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm

I have to agree with you. I am not a fan of copper. I have only used it a few times myself because of my general disdain.

Chloroquine diphosphate is rather hard to find at your LFS. While searching for it on the internet, I came upon a surprising number of Canadain pharmacies advertising to sell it. Although, I know it is illegal to buy for yourself, I wonder how the FDA would feel about buying foreign drugs for your fish. Since posting this comment on a public forum on the internet, I guess I should expect a 'visit' from some officials from the FDA in the near future.

 

[oama]

Steve & Terry

Chloroquine is faster acting, in the begining. But, for something of the likes of Amyloo and the minimum three weeks of treatment, the treatment regiment quickly turns into something paralelling Voodoo medicine. No one has been able to provide to me anything about how quickly this medicine breaks down. And, I don't recall any LD50 work on these drugs.

I did read one paper on how to analyse the amount of active chemicals in water. But, only an advance/specialized laboratory would have the ability to do this. Frankly, I find that doing RIA with I125 for thyroid hormones would be a simplier process!

So, you would be guessing at how much chemical to redose at each treatment. Massive water changes. Degradation of the chemical. With every treatment, you would be adding a huge variable. These can add up to underdosing or over dosing.

There is just no practicle way to measure the stuff, even in a production situation.

I would advise any one to use it initially for treatment, then switch as quickly as possible to another treatment regiment. Complex copper solutions, such as Cupramine by SeaChem, are cheap, easily availible, easily measurable, not as harsh as other coppers, more stable, more forgiving and highly effective.

You can also use Chlorquine in conjuntion with Cupramine w/out ill effects.

 

[TerryB]

Hi Steven,

Thanks for posting the link to my article. I know that you like what you call the water change method, but I have my reservations about this method. The problem as I see it is that tomonts attach to any hard surface so making water changes or even removing the sand every third day wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t eliminate all the tomonts. Since these methods rely on the removal of the tomonts to affect a cure, I cannot consider them more than partially effective.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I think that we share the same opinion about Cupramine. I believe it is the safest most effective copper-based medication available. However, while Cupramine is my copper of choice it is still copper. Interesting information about the availability of chloroquine in Canada.

Cheers,
Terry B

 

[TerryB]

Oama,

Actually, only one dose of chloroquine is supposed to be used. As I understand it, you dose on the first day only and leave the fish in the treated water for 10 days. Chloroquine actually kills the parasite while it attached to the fish so you should not need to treat for 21 days. Of course, if you moved the fish for treatment, you cannot transfer the fish back into an infected tank right away.

Interesting thought in combining chloroquine and copper treatments. I have considered the idea of treating with chloroquine for the first three days when using the transfer method because it does give some relief quickly.

Cheers,
Terry B

 

[oama]

Actually, only one dose of chloroquine is supposed to be used. As I understand it, you dose on the first day only and leave the fish in the treated water for 10 days. Chloroquine actually kills the parasite while it attached to the fish so you should not need to treat for 21 days.

Interesting Theory. I also read that in Noga's book. Real World? Nope. You'd be asking for a re-infestation.

This may be do to the dinospores being able to live up to 15 days w/out host fish. (Amyloodinium Infections of Marine Fish, Peggy Reed and Ruth Francis-Floyd).

 

[Steven Pro]

Hi Steven,
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I think that we share the same opinion about Cupramine. I believe it is the safest most effective copper-based medication available. However, while Cupramine is my copper of choice it is still copper. Interesting information about the availability of chloroquine in Canada.
Cheers,
Terry B

I really have not used enough copper to have an informed opinion. I know for certain I have used products by Aquarium Systems and Mardel, but can't recall if I ever used Cupramine. I was not happy with the ones I used previously and have since sought out alternatives without ever really looking back at newer modes of treating with copper.