Another ICH question

[mhosts]

Hey everyone:

I've been having the wonderful experience of ICH in my display tank over the last month.

Although I haven't lost a fish (Touching wood as we speak). I have a few questions as to how it may have appeared and if it is possible over time that it will go away.

I know, I know. The only real way of getting rid of ICH is with hyposalinity or Copper.

But in this case. I have a 120 gallon tank with 1 kole tang, 1 yellow clown goby, a pair of skunk clowns and 1 ocellaris clown.

I have not added any new fish in over 3 months. The ICH has presented itself in the last month. Only new additions were some SPS frags and an ACAN. Is it possible that I could have introduced ICH Through one of these coral additions?

As of right now, only the Tang seems to be affected by the lifecycle of the ICH. All other fish except for 1 skunk clown have never had a white spot the entire time.

The tang is eating like a horse, grazing algae and is not showing any signs of stress, high breathing or scratching. He visits the cleaner shrimps often to help the dead skin and after about 2 days gets fully healed with no visible scars.

After about 1 week it seems to come back.

Catching the tang is an impossible task and will require taking the tank completely apart.

My question to everyone is. Is it worth stressing the entire display tank by removing all live rock to catch and quarantine my kole tang? Or is it possible that over time as nature takes it's course the ICH may go away?

 

[cabrego]

Unfortunately, once ich is in your main display the only way to rid it without the use of copper, it is to remove all of your fish and quarantine with copper or other means such as hypo. Even though, not all the fish are showing signs of ich, it is possible that the parasites are living on them and may not be actually burrowing into their skin.

I am not sure if ich can be introduced through coral additions, I suppose it is possible especially if you poured the water from the corals into your tank.

To answer your questions, it is not worth it in my opinion to catch one fish to treat, when there is a guarantee that many more free swiming parasites are in your tank. I think at this point the two basic options are
1) Let nature take it's course, the ich will likely not disappear, but your fish's immune system will take care of them until they become overly stressed for some reason.

2)Go the qurantine route and try to rid ich completely from your system.

 

[sergiotx]

This may be a Dumb question, I'm having the same problem, but:

Could you remove the invertebrates and corals into a qurantine tank, treat the tank and live rock with copper?

Would copper have a negative affect on the live rock?

 

[mhosts]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15293191#post15293191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cabrego
Unfortunately, once ich is in your main display the only way to rid it without the use of copper, it is to remove all of your fish and quarantine with copper or other means such as hypo. Even though, not all the fish are showing signs of ich, it is possible that the parasites are living on them and may not be actually burrowing into their skin.

I am not sure if ich can be introduced through coral additions, I suppose it is possible especially if you poured the water from the corals into your tank.

To answer your questions, it is not worth it in my opinion to catch one fish to treat, when there is a guarantee that many more free swiming parasites are in your tank. I think at this point the two basic options are
1) Let nature take it's course, the ich will likely not disappear, but your fish's immune system will take care of them until they become overly stressed for some reason.

2)Go the qurantine route and try to rid ich completely from your system.

I never pour water from any new arrival into my tank. I always net it in or place it in after accliamation.

Removing everything from my tank is going to be such a PITA.

Do you think a 20 gallon long tank will be ok for all of my livestock to be quarantined? Or do I need something bigger?

Any Ideas on how I can limit ammonia spike in the QT while it's cycling?

If I manage to get all livestock out of the main tank it would be a real dissapointment to loose them due to stress of a small tank or an ammonia spike.

 

[mhosts]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15293262#post15293262 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sergiotx
This may be a Dumb question, I'm having the same problem, but:

Could you remove the invertebrates and corals into a qurantine tank, treat the tank and live rock with copper?

Would copper have a negative affect on the live rock?

Yeah... Copper would have a huge effect on the live rock.. #1 it would kill it and cause an ammonia spike. But it will tend to absorb in so over time it is near impossible to remove copper from the tank.

Doing it your way would require moving the Live Rock to a large RubberMaid Bin and putting the corals in a smaller tank with adequate lighting/reef parameters.

But then the sand will still absorb the copper so the only viable option would be hyposalinity which will still kill all of the beneficial bacteria in the live sand anyways...

 

[sergiotx]

WOW!!! That would have been horrible!!!!

I tend to be kinda leary with LFS and advice given, one of them actually suggested doing this, Thats why I like doing my homework here first...

I will set up a quranteen tank and catch my problem tang at night, but how do I rid it out of my tank since now its in my tank, right?

 

[Ohiomom]

First off use DT water for your QT..no cycle then..will be easier to catch the fish too..add new water to your display, like doing a large water change..

Inverts and corals stay in the main tank but no fish for 6-8 weeks.

QT tank, fish only no sand or rock you can use pvc for hiding spots..treat with copper and/or hypo..

hth

 

[Ohiomom]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1500214

good thread..

 

[mhosts]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15293778#post15293778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ohiomom
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1500214

good thread..

Thanks!

 

[mhosts]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15293770#post15293770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ohiomom
First off use DT water for your QT..no cycle then..will be easier to catch the fish too..add new water to your display, like doing a large water change..

Inverts and corals stay in the main tank but no fish for 6-8 weeks.

QT tank, fish only no sand or rock you can use pvc for hiding spots..treat with copper and/or hypo..

hth

I always thought that the nitrifying bacteria always lived on/in surfaces such as live rock, sponges, carbon blocks etc...

I still think there will be a cycle even if I use display tank water since these bacteria are very few and far between in the water itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong...!

 

[Ohiomom]

Maybe so but won't be as big..if you want transfer a small piece of rock or sand but imo be prepared to throw it out..You can also use some of your old filter media in the QT tank..

you will likely get 50 diff opinions from 50 diff people..I have always (once) done it as described above..

 

[mhosts]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15293935#post15293935 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ohiomom
Maybe so but won't be as big..if you want transfer a small piece of rock or sand but imo be prepared to throw it out..You can also use some of your old filter media in the QT tank..

you will likely get 50 diff opinions from 50 diff people..I have always (once) done it as described above..

Ok.. Will try it out.

I'm just really scared as Everytime I've QT'd a sick fish in the past it never worked out and this time I'm QTing every fish I have...

 

[1geo]

If one of your fish have Ich, ALL of your fish have Ich and MUST be treated even if they exhibit no symptoms. Below is a writeup on Marine Parasites.

Ich, Marine Velvet, Brooklynella are all marine parasites. Ich has a life cycle with includes eggs. The eggs can lay dormant in the substrata of a tank for up to 8 weeks. Once they hatch they only have hours to find a host fish or die. So to get rid of Ich you have to leave the tank fallow, fishless, for 8 weeks. Corals, live sand, live rock, Invertebrates, are not affected by marine parasites and can stay in the tank. Marine Velvet even though different, is in the same category as Ich and is treated the same. Brooklynella, which is common among wild Clownfish, is a parasite that divides by cell division. The new cell becomes a swimmer and can persist in the tank as a swimmer for up to 4 weeks. If it does not find a host in that time then it dies. So unless you know specifically which parasite you have, you have to leave the tank fallow for 8 weeks. You can leave everything else in the tank except fish. Fish that have Ich and Marine Velvet are treated in a hospital tank with copper (the treatment of choice) or Formalin. Brook can only be treated with Formalin 37%. Since Formalin treats BOTH Ich and Brook and is quicker then copper, I recommend it first. Formalin is mixed with water to form a bath and the fish are given a bath for 45 to 60 minutes; the longer the better. Formalin does not accumulate in water, in fact, it has been written that in two hours it dissipates and the water is reef safe so for each bath it has to be mixed fresh and used immediately. Formalin has a short shelf live so use fresh stock. Your best bet for fresh stock is to buy from high volume dealers off the internet. Just make sure you buy 37% Formalin. Hope this helps, 1geo

 

[mhosts]

I have a bottle of Formulain3 at home that I used to try and cure Brook from one of my Clownfish...

I was thinking of going the copper route as this has been recommended the most for ICH.

Is it ok to put all of my fish in a 20gallon QT tank though?

 

[Ohiomom]

can always use a rubbermaid container..ie 55 gallon size will work..put someplace were it gets some natural light..

 

[1geo]

If you use copper, you will have them in your QT tank for 4 weeks. So keep that in mind when you decide on the size of the QT tank. With Formalin, you give them 5 baths over a period of 10 days. Are you sure of what your fish have? Ich or Brook? If you have Brook and you treat them for Ich with copper, it will not help them. At least with Formalin you know you can treat BOTH parasites at once.

 

[1geo]

Ich and Brook are very similar in symptoms. Without a microscope and an examine of their skin tissue, it would be very difficult to say which one is which. During the treatment, you will have to keep your fish in the QT tank and after the treatment they will have to be put in a separate tank for the 8 weeks you need to keep your main tank fallow so the parasites will die. The best way to keep from getting these parasites is to QT new arrives for at least three or four weeks before putting them in your main tank. If your fish are struggling, give them a formalin bath and see if they get relief. Take one gallon of your QT water in a separate container and add 1 cc of 37% formalin to it. By using the QT water you get an exact chemistry match, i.e., PH, Salinity, etc. Once mixed put 2 or 3 fish in the bath and keep a close eye on them. If they show extreme stress put them back in the QT tank. Remember, extreme stress, not just stress; they have to have the treatment or they become a continuous source of parasites. Remember, in 2 hours the Formalin mix will no longer be usable as a bath, so the next bath will require a new mix. There are some scaless fish that cannot tolerate formalin so check with the manufacturer's recommendations.

 

[Znut Reefer]

Wheres the best place to get formalin from. The drug store only have 10% and won't sell without a prescription.

 

[1geo]

A number of retailers sell Formalin. FishVet puts out Formalin MS, which can be purchased from https://www.petsolutions.com/Formalin-MS+I64000033+C40003229.aspx You can also purchase it from Amazon, http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...=aps&hvadid=3402555017&ref=pd_sl_921m724kxs_b If you do a google search I am sure you can find many other sources.

 

[sergiotx]

So what went wrong? I could use a little more advice...

I used a 20 gallon long with heater and canister filter, removed 20 gallons from my main tank, basically did a water change, checked my ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels all read 0, provided an airstone, pvc to hide in and then put my purple tang in and now, less than 24 hours later he's dead....

Kinda disgusted I know these things happen, but could use help so this doesnt happen again....