Another ich question

D

dcarrington

New member
Ok, perhaps the inter webs are too good. I have a 47g FOWLR tank with some hermit crabs, couple turbo snails, valentini puffer, long nosed hawkfish, and a huma huma. The live rock in the tank is about 40#'s fuji along with about 2" aragonite sand. So the tank has been up now for about 6 months now. Recently had my small blue angelfish die on me. Before it went down it was rubbing itself on the sanded (horizontally). It started hiding out and was really lethargic. Before he died, he was really pale (washed out) and looked like he was dusted with powdered sugar. Recently the valentini puffer has been kinda hidin out (instead of cruising around the tank) and hanging out on zthe outflow of the skimmer. His eyes look a bit cloudy too. The huma has been going crazy rubbing all over the rocks and other items. The puffer on his dorsal fin has a bit of some white spots, and the huma doesn't have any. So the consensus of the 2 LFS guys is ich. One LFS guy said it might be flukes and both suggested a freshwater dip, which I did (5 min in freshwater with a bit of Melafix).
Now here's my question. If it is ich, other than the hyposalinity, what is the best/safest way to treat the tank. I have read about puffers not being ok with copper based treatments, but one LFS guy says use cupramine. The other one and the inter webs say use Rid Ich Plus. Help help, think I have researched this too much, and don't wanna hurt the fish! Thanks,
David
 
Well, any copper based medication like Cupramine will kill all of your inverts (like your hermits and snails), and will bond to your LR so you will never be able to have inverts or coral in that tank ever again. Some people even take it a step further, and say once you use copper it leaches into your silicone and you can NEVER use that tank ever again for corals/inverts. Personally, I just don't like the finality of something like that.

It sounds likely that you tank is infected with Ich. Your best move would be to move all your fish to a QT and treat in there. IME, most puffers don't do well with copper, so I'd do hypo in the QT. Leave your DT fallow (fishless) for 2 solid months during this time and the Ich will be gone. You can leave your snails/hermits in the DT during the fallow period. This is your best option, the way I see it.

Your only other option is to soak fish food in garlic and hope your fishes' immune systems can do the rest. This is a long shot IMO but some people claim it works. But most people will tell you that the whole garlic soaking thing is better as a preventative than an actual cure. Some people even claim that the whole garlic soaking thing is all just b/s.
 
b0bab0ey said:
Well, any copper based medication like Cupramine will kill all of your inverts (like your hermits and snails), and will bond to your LR so you will never be able to have inverts or coral in that tank ever again. Some people even take it a step further, and say once you use copper it leaches into your silicone and you can NEVER use that tank ever again for corals/inverts. Personally, I just don't like the finality of something like that.

It sounds likely that you tank is infected with Ich. Your best move would be to move all your fish to a QT and treat in there. IME, most puffers don't do well with copper, so I'd do hypo in the QT. Leave your DT fallow (fishless) for 2 solid months during this time and the Ich will be gone. You can leave your snails/hermits in the DT during the fallow period. This is your best option, the way I see it.


Thanks for the advice! I don't have a QT, tank though. What are your thoughts on bringing the main tank down to hyposainity levels (1.01x)? I would rather not introduce the chemicals into the tank for the reasons you listed. Don't really wanna kill everything off on the LR, since it came outta my reef tank. I am also ok with loosing the five or so hermits and 3 turbo's. The LFS said they would babysit the giant red hairy hermit for me too.
Thanks again!
Would dropping the salinity down to 1.012 or so hurt the hermits?
Your only other option is to soak fish food in garlic and hope your fishes' immune systems can do the rest. This is a long shot IMO but some people claim it works. But most people will tell you that the whole garlic soaking thing is better as a preventative than an actual cure. Some people even claim that the whole garlic soaking thing is all just b/s.
Click to expand...
 
Also forgot about setting up a QT, does it need to cycle like the main tanks? I already have the heater power head, and a HOB filter (new with bio wheels). I could get a 20 gallon tank and put the huma, puffer, and hawkfish in there (might have to get some rock for them to hid out on/in), if that would be the best solution.

After the freshwater dip yesterday afternoon the puffer is kinda still hidding out and the huma is scratching a bit, but is out swimming around. On a side note.
 
Well, you'll need to go hypo for at least one full month to eradicate the Ich. My best guess is that in that time the low salinity would kill off all your snails, crabs, stuff living in your LR and ultimately, the bacteria living in your LR. You'd basically uncycle your tank and the ammonia spike would then kill off all the fish you just saved from Ich. Every post I've ever seen on hypo suggests doing it in a barebottom tank w/no rocks or anything. The link below is a sticky from a mod on here that I highly respect and she had this to say:

"Why a bare tank? Because when under assault, the ich will encyst and drop off the fish to attach to sand, rock, or filter media."

So, as you can see, doing hypo in a tank with sand/LR is actually counterproductive anyway. Therefore, I don't think it's a good option for you at all. Unless you can remove all the sand/LR, and basically convert your DT into a barebottom for the duration of the hypo treatment. You could store the sand/LR in a large rubbermaid or plastic garbage can for TWO MONTHS and then put it back in the DT once your salinity is back up to normal. Obviously, you'd need to store it in saltwater with a pump for circulation and you'd need to throw a pinch of flake in every couple of days to maintain your bacteria population in the LR. You'd still have some bacteria die-off, and there would be a chance of an ammonia spike/mini-cycle once you put the LR back in. But it's the only way I see you could do hypo in your DT.

I know... it's never easy. I still think your best bet would be to invest in a QT and go fallow on the DT. Your QT doesn't have to be anything fancy or expensive. Just a tank, heater, HOB or sponge filter w/some PVC pipe for hiding places. I've also included a link below w/good info for setting up a QT.

Hyposalinity: how-to; when-to; how-long-to

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991470

Help setting up a QT tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1866770&highlight=setting+up+qt
 
dcarrington said:
Also forgot about setting up a QT, does it need to cycle like the main tanks? I already have the heater power head, and a HOB filter (new with bio wheels). I could get a 20 gallon tank and put the huma, puffer, and hawkfish in there (might have to get some rock for them to hid out on/in), if that would be the best solution.

After the freshwater dip yesterday afternoon the puffer is kinda still hidding out and the huma is scratching a bit, but is out swimming around. On a side note.
Click to expand...

If your DT is a 47g, then I'd have to think a 20g QT would get the job done for you. And it sounds like you already have everything you need minus the tank. Sometimes you can get a good deal on craigslist or a LFS selling a 2nd hand tank. No need to cycle the QT. That HOB filter is all you need. But do keep an eye on the bottom of your tank. If you start to see fish poop accumulating, siphon it out and do a small WC. You're gonna have to do small, numerous WCs while you're fish are in QT to compensate for not having a biological filter to break the waste down.
 
+1 on all b0bab0ey has said. I'd do hypo in your QT for at least 2 months though, as the ich lifecycle can vary. You can increase the temp to 81-82 to speed up the cycle. Daily w/c in your sponge filter QT will be important. Be sure to feed your fish while in QT to reduce additional stress. Skip the LR and get some PVC fittings so your fish can hide there.

IMO, your fish are oversized for your 46g, maybe except the valentini. Proper research will only increase your enjoyment in this hobby.
 
IMO & IME: there just't isn't an effective way to cure ich in a DT A QT is a must for completer elimination of any parasite. Try Craigs liss, whatever. A QT doesn't have to be expensive---less that the cost of one average fish. Then use it to QT all fish before putting them in your main tank and you'll never go through this again. IMO: A QT is a vital piece of equipment, not something that's nice to have. BTW: Copper will not make a tank uninhabitable. the idea of silicone absorbing & leaching copper was de-bunked long ago. Pure myth. Many LFS run copper 24/7 in all their fish tanks; how could that happen, if the copper absorption myth was fact?
 
MrTuskfish said:
IMO & IME: there just't isn't an effective way to cure ich in a DT A QT is a must for completer elimination of any parasite. Try Craigs liss, whatever. A QT doesn't have to be expensive---less that the cost of one average fish. Then use it to QT all fish before putting them in your main tank and you'll never go through this again. IMO: A QT is a vital piece of equipment, not something that's nice to have. BTW: Copper will not make a tank uninhabitable. the idea of silicone absorbing & leaching copper was de-bunked long ago. Pure myth. Many LFS run copper 24/7 in all their fish tanks; how could that happen, if the copper absorption myth was fact?
Click to expand...

I'm not going to debate with you whether copper absorption is myth or fact. To be honest, I don't know for sure. I've read many opinions but nothing conclusive on it, one way or the other. But I don't understand how LFSs that run copper 24/7 supports or debunks copper absorption. Most LFSs I've been to keep their fish & inverts in separate tanks and separate systems.
 
b0bab0ey said:
I'm not going to debate with you whether copper absorption is myth or fact. To be honest, I don't know for sure. I've read many opinions but nothing conclusive on it, one way or the other. But I don't understand how LFSs that run copper 24/7 supports or debunks copper absorption. Most LFSs I've been to keep their fish & inverts in separate tanks and separate systems.
Click to expand...
Yeah, bad example. Here's my experience (purely anecdotal): I QT everything, including all corals and inverts. I treat all fish with copper. Since moving after Katrina (almost 6 years ago), I've run tons of Cupramine (enough to provide fish for my two 240s, 180 & a 55+ a friends tanks of almost equal capacity) thru my QT and (after removal with Cuprisorb) it is undetectable---even using a University lab to test for it. Inverts in this tank do just fine.
I think SeaChem, maker of Cupramine, has some of the best tech support in the business, here's what they say:http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq12
 
I have used cupramine in a fowlr tank and converted it to a reef tank in the past with no issues even the rock was covered with corraline algae, I just used cuprisorb carbon skimming and water changes to remove the copper, I do have to say it took me a good month to remove all traceable amounts of copper.

During cupramine treatments I have had a dozen blue legs survive it with no adverse effects they were just less active during treatment but after back to normal, I also had some grass shrimps that I caught from the bay that was in my sump that also lived .

But I have killed every flame angel that I have used copper on so go figure and a lot of guys on here have used cupramine on there flames with no issues
 
Aside from treating all fish, in QT, with hyposalinity or copper AND leaving the display tank fallow (fishless), for a period of at least 8 weeks, I'd also suggest rehoming a couple of your fish.

Given the fish list that you posted, along with the "small blue angel" that died, your tank was seriously overstocked. This over stocking level will just add to the fish stress, during QT. The Huma Huma, alone, should be in nothing less than a 100 gallon tank.
 
MrTuskfish said:
Yeah, bad example. Here's my experience (purely anecdotal): I QT everything, including all corals and inverts. I treat all fish with copper. Since moving after Katrina (almost 6 years ago), I've run tons of Cupramine (enough to provide fish for my two 240s, 180 & a 55+ a friends tanks of almost equal capacity) thru my QT and (after removal with Cuprisorb) it is undetectable---even using a University lab to test for it. Inverts in this tank do just fine.
I think SeaChem, maker of Cupramine, has some of the best tech support in the business, here's what they say:http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq12
Click to expand...

Two questions:

1) Do you think the same holds true for a tank that has been treated with Coppersafe?

2) I left New Orleans 5+ years ago, after Katrina. Where on the Gulf Coast are you from?
 
Thanks for all the info and replies. I picked up a 20 gallon long tank, and some PVC tubes for beds. I also put in an airstone near the filter output. Interesting that it only holds about 17 gallons (bare bottom). So mixed up the water (RODI) mixed in 2.75 cups of instant ocean, and set the temp to 84*. So when moving the fish from the DT to the QT, should I float them and then drip them to get used to the lower salinity? Before I bring them over, going to borrow a friend's refractometer (mine doesn't go down that low).
 
Uh... did you read this?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991470

"Catch your fish, put him [them] in the hospital tank at regular salinity, and, over 48 hours, slowly lower the salinity in the hospital tank to 1.009."

I would do exactly this. If you try to just drip acclimate them (even over 2-3 hours) I'm pretty sure they're all going to die. Raise your salinity so that it matches your DT. Also, make sure your pH and temp are the same as your DT. Once all that has been accomplished, just put the fish right in. Then (as the sticky says) lower your salinity to 1.009 slowly over a period of 48 hours. If you want to raise the temp to 84, do this a day or two AFTER you've got them down to the 1.009 salinity.

Good luck!
 
b0bab0ey said:
Two questions:

1) Do you think the same holds true for a tank that has been treated with Coppersafe?

2) I left New Orleans 5+ years ago, after Katrina. Where on the Gulf Coast are you from?
Click to expand...

I'm from the MS coast., by way of N. Wis.
As to Coppersafe, I have no experience, but just can't imagine silicone absorbing and releasing much of anything; but I admit I'm no chemist. I really think all the silicone/copper stuff started when meth blue was noted to turn silicone blue. Because blue is an indicator for copper, I just think the idea spread. Maybe 10 years ago, I used meth. blue to keep FW Angel eggs safe from fungus and it did turn the silicone blue; I was hearing about the silicone/copper issue at the time and was already using copper on all my SW fish. When one of my hatching tanks cracked, I took a glass pane out and cut a cross-section of the silicone. The blue color was only skin deep; I imagine, because meth blue is a dye. Again, I'm no scientist; but silicone doesn't absorb water, could it still absorb copper? I doubt it, but don't know. wetwebmedia has a lot of stuff, mostly by Bob Fenner, that really puts copper absorption in place: http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&...eo0_xX&ved=0CAwQBSgA&q=silicon,copper&spell=1
BTW, many folks are amazed to learn that their salt mix contains copper.
 
So got the QT tank set up and moved the fish over yesterday. Tank has the same SG as the main one, have the temp in the QT at 82-83*. Don't know if the little puffer guy's going to make it. Seems he has little spots all over him now, even on his eyes. So going to start treating the tank with the Rid Ich Plus (formalin and malachite green) to see if that will clear it up faster than bringing the tank down to the hypo levels. The other two fish seem to be alright and are eating (puffer hangs out in a PVC tube).
As a side note, it was mentioned the fish are too big for the tank. The huma is about 1.5", the longnose hawkfish about 2", and the puffer 1.5". We know the huma will get bigger, and when he does, we'll either have a bigger tank (great reason to upgrade!), or trade him in. I prefer the bigger tank, can sell the wife on our fish living in someone else's house! lol
 
dcarrington said:
So got the QT tank set up and moved the fish over yesterday. Tank has the same SG as the main one, have the temp in the QT at 82-83*. Don't know if the little puffer guy's going to make it. Seems he has little spots all over him now, even on his eyes. So going to start treating the tank with the Rid Ich Plus (formalin and malachite green) to see if that will clear it up faster than bringing the tank down to the hypo levels. The other two fish seem to be alright and are eating (puffer hangs out in a PVC tube).
As a side note, it was mentioned the fish are too big for the tank. The huma is about 1.5", the longnose hawkfish about 2", and the puffer 1.5". We know the huma will get bigger, and when he does, we'll either have a bigger tank (great reason to upgrade!), or trade him in. I prefer the bigger tank, can sell the wife on our fish living in someone else's house! lol
Click to expand...

Everything I have read about temp states that raising it is unnecessary for marine ich. This is something that has carried over from the freshwater world, but there is apparantly no evidence raising the temp will speed up the marine ich cycle. Also, since your tank needs to remain fishless for 2 months, don't be in a hurry to try the 'latest and greatest' ich treatment. Read all you can, the majority of sources state that the only two real options are copper or hyposalinity.

Good luck.
 
Copper is safe for puffers provided you are running it at less then .18 ppm and will work - this is what most wholesalers run in their systems constantly when they are bringing in fish.... however at risk of sounding like a ruby reef sales guy would tell you out of all the meds that I have tested in the years of taking care of aquariums their kick ick, and hydro plex is the best products out that do not seem to affect an aquarium or inverts. It should be available online and fairly reasonable in price.

In the future the best option is to get a UV sterilizer hooked up - every tank we take care of has one for one reason - no more ich :)
 
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