Another lesson learned
- Thread starter scuzy
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wooden_reefer
New member
Two weeks of active treatment will not eradicate ich.
There are two considerations in eradicating ich in cases of actual infestation in DT.
First is active treatment in QT. Four weeks is a possibility but six weeks is fair chance. eight is better. I do 12 or more because I want to be extra careful. I won't argue against 8 weeks.
Second is fallow periods of at least 10 weeks, better is 12 weeks.
You cannot escape lengthy active treatment.
Without infestation in DT, you need only to consider active treatment in QT.
wooden_reefer
New member
Actually, you can do your way and hope for the best.
But I suggest that you at the same time cycle enough medium robustly at the same time.
If it fails you can do it properly and less taxingly and be certain next time.
Just don't go on vacation a few months after your way.
But I suggest that you at the same time cycle enough medium robustly at the same time.
If it fails you can do it properly and less taxingly and be certain next time.
Just don't go on vacation a few months after your way.
wooden_reefer
New member
wooden_reefer
New member
A few posts I read here seem to suggest that even four weeks of active treatment is chancy. I have failed with four weeks more than 30 years ago.
The lifecycle gives the clue, and there are genetic variations.
The lifecycle gives the clue, and there are genetic variations.
wooden_reefer
New member
Best of luck and things could work out well for you, but I hope you don't plan on long trips in the next couple of months.
You may have to do the same thing over again.
wooden_reefer
New member
Do not believe that 15-25% daily water change, particularly without removing all decayable particules, will do much to reduce ammonia exposure.
Ammonia is very toxic to some fish.
Fish without effective nitrification is in a very precarious existence; the more the bigger the fish the more this is true.
Mrscribbled
Team RC
30 day copper treatment minimum is required. 2 weeks is not enough. I'd go 6 at .35 ppm. I've talked to seachem before and the reason they have 2 weeks on the bottle is because they feel that the ich lifecycle is 21 days tops.
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sandwi54
New member
There are so many misconceptions in this thread. Let me clear a few.
1. Cupramine (or hyposalinity) does NOT harm the biological filter. This has been proven for many years. I have never had an ammonia problem with cupramine or hyposalinity in a cycled QT.
2. If your QT is not cycled, then wooden_reefer is absolutely correct in that you will have a serious ammonia issue with so many fish in the QT, and that will kill the majority of your fish much sooner than ich itself. Doing 20% daily water change will NOT help. When battling ammonia issues, most of the time 50% water changes twice a day is needed. You also CANNOT use Prime or Amquel to detoxify ammonia as it reduces Cupramine's Cu+2 ion into Cu+1, which is ten times more toxic. If you do not have a cycled QT, do not treat the fish at this time until it is cycled.
3. Two weeks of cupramine is not enough. You probably just lucked out last time that all the ich organisms completed their life cycles within two weeks. Four weeks are the absolute minimum as the average ich life cycle is 28 days.
Hope this helps. I have cured many fish of ich with both cupramine and hyposalinity. You need a cycled QT to begin treatment.
1. Cupramine (or hyposalinity) does NOT harm the biological filter. This has been proven for many years. I have never had an ammonia problem with cupramine or hyposalinity in a cycled QT.
2. If your QT is not cycled, then wooden_reefer is absolutely correct in that you will have a serious ammonia issue with so many fish in the QT, and that will kill the majority of your fish much sooner than ich itself. Doing 20% daily water change will NOT help. When battling ammonia issues, most of the time 50% water changes twice a day is needed. You also CANNOT use Prime or Amquel to detoxify ammonia as it reduces Cupramine's Cu+2 ion into Cu+1, which is ten times more toxic. If you do not have a cycled QT, do not treat the fish at this time until it is cycled.
3. Two weeks of cupramine is not enough. You probably just lucked out last time that all the ich organisms completed their life cycles within two weeks. Four weeks are the absolute minimum as the average ich life cycle is 28 days.
Hope this helps. I have cured many fish of ich with both cupramine and hyposalinity. You need a cycled QT to begin treatment.
wooden_reefer
New member
The previous owner may also have believed in two week of active treatment. This may be one of the causes of your problem; the main cause is to trust a stranger on something as involved, as taxing on patience and requiring of skills and commitment as QT to eradicate ich.
This thread actually shows many problems.
The idea of using a 100 gallon tank for this purpose is also not ideal, IME. What is better here are two containers of about 40 gals each. Two 33 gal trash cans may also be good. 100% water change with transfer of livestock is better. Alternate with each container with each 100% WC. Because all ammonia generating particles will also be removed. One has to be careful with temp, salinity and PH match. I do this all the time. Transfer of livestock is better done daily in near darkness. The already weakened fish will more likely be calm and will not struggle. Never with a net, by hand with thick gloves if necessary.
There are many misconceptions that should be clarified.
This thread actually shows many problems.
The idea of using a 100 gallon tank for this purpose is also not ideal, IME. What is better here are two containers of about 40 gals each. Two 33 gal trash cans may also be good. 100% water change with transfer of livestock is better. Alternate with each container with each 100% WC. Because all ammonia generating particles will also be removed. One has to be careful with temp, salinity and PH match. I do this all the time. Transfer of livestock is better done daily in near darkness. The already weakened fish will more likely be calm and will not struggle. Never with a net, by hand with thick gloves if necessary.
There are many misconceptions that should be clarified.
wooden_reefer
New member
A weak cycle may be the result. This is a non-issue. A robust enough cycle should kill fish in the process, and all you fish may have died before such weak cycle is complete.
I strongly urge you to start a cycle in a separate container ASAP. If you are a good DIYer and understand wet-dry, you should set up a wet-dry now. Wet dry is faster and more efficient than submerged nitrification filter. If you do not undersatnd wet-dry and are not a good DIYer, as least set up a submerged filtration system. Use ammonia pulses of several ppm several times during the cycle. You have a lot of bioload to deal with.
With that many big fish, if you are not a good DIYer, the basic setup of the emergency biological filter will be expensive. How many HOT filter boxes will be needed?
If you decide on cycling, you should setup a DIY nitrification filter. But to cycle the medium now, ASAP, you need only the medium, such as polyester floss or crush coral, and strong circulation and aeration; set temp at mid to high 80'sF. Salinity somewhat low at sg 1.107 or so. Add pulses of ammonia of several ppm several times several days apart. To use such medium in QT, best is to have a DIY makeshift biological filter.
Ammonia is much more toxic than nitrite. When pressed for time, you may not need to wait for nitrite to drop. As soon as nitrite has peaked, you can elect to use a major portion of the medium for use in QT, and leave the other portion to complete the cycle, for nitrite to drop to zero. You always rinse out the old cycling water before use in QT, of course.
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wooden_reefer
New member
I assume you have the commonsense to include a small portion of live sand as seeds.
wooden_reefer
New member
1.017 not 1.107
wooden_reefer
New member
Packaged bacteria may help a little but likely not the key here. The bioload here is simply too great.
Cycling in a separate container is far easier and far surer than any avoidance of it. The more your hesitate the longer it will take.
No matter what you decide to do finally, cycling in a separate container ASAP has to be done, if only as contigency for the next round if necessary. you definitely do not want to waste any valuable time.
Any attempt to circumvent cycling is to suggest that the whole idea of cycling in QT or DT is a fad; it is not. If you can get away without cycling in this acute and very pressing situation, why would anyone bother to cycle at all?
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