Another temp question, just to be sure

[rshimek]

Originally posted by GSB

Hi,

Could you direct us to the studies that have shown that 300-400 species cannot survive temperatures below this? In fact, can you show us any sps study that has demonstrated that a single coral cannot survive in 78 degree water?

First define what an sps coral is. This simply can't be done, as this is not a term that can be used.

Numerous corals in nature will not be found in where the temperature dips that low. Go to books that show maps of where coral species occur.

Then look at the lowest temperatures found at the edges of their ranges. They do not grow below that temperature. You will find that for a great many of them, they never see temperatures below 78. However, most can survive poorly at those temperatures.

You will find references to low thermal tolerances and corals here:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm

Regarding your comment about bacteria, in one study corals infected with Vibrio survived in cooler water but succumbed in warmer water, so there is some evidence that corals can handle infection better in cooler water (perhaps because of slower bacteria growth).

Just the opposite, actually...

You need to actually read these studies I suspect. The coral in question is Oculina patagonica. This coral is a Red Sea species invading the Mediterranean sea (a cold sea without much coral) in the region of the Israeli coast. In this area, it gets infected with Vibrio shiloi a species which does indeed cause temperature dependent bleaching in this coral, in this particular non-normal habitat; which tends to kill the coral. This particular habitat is signficantly cooler than where the coral is normally found, and this method of mortality is, in fact, a good example of how low temperatures limit coral distribution. In this case, the coral seems to adapt to the low temperatues, but when slight, but normal for the area, elevations then do occur, a pathogen which doesn't harm the coral in its normal habitat can kill it in the cooler one.

Here are couple of recent references on this interaction. You can back track to some others through them:

Kushmaro, A., E. Banin, Y. Loya, E. Stackebrandt and E. Rosenberg. 2001. Vibrio shiloi sp. nov., the causative agent of bleaching of the coral Oculina patagonica. International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology. 51:1383-1388.

Banin, E., T. Israely, M. Fine, Y. Loya and E. Rosenberg. 2001. Role of endosymbiotic zooxanthellae and coral mucus in the adhesion of the coral-bleaching pathogen Vibrio shiloi to its host. Fems (Federation of European Microbiological Societies) Microbiology Letters. 199:33-37.

:strooper:

 

[saltshop]

LOL...I see Richard has made his way back to the forum through a different ISP...congrats. My original words "Not this crap again! " seemed to be quite prophetic..eh?

[Originally posted by GSB


Could you direct us to the studies that have shown that 300-400 species cannot survive temperatures below this? In fact, can you show us any sps study that has demonstrated that a single coral cannot survive in 78 degree water?

581+ nominal species in the central Indo 100-200 in Fiji. Need I say more?


Regarding your comment about bacteria, in one study corals infected with Vibrio survived in cooler water but succumbed in warmer water, so there is some evidence that corals can handle infection better in cooler water (perhaps because of slower bacteria growth).

Never mind Dr, Ron covered this way better than I ever could. Hey, maybe you can bring back that worthless piece of trash article on testing for bacteria levels in tanks and we can rehash that again??? Still waiting for an explanation as to why you mis-represented Veron in past discussions....

"It goes on and on, on and on,on an on an on an on..." - Black Sabbath

 

[saltshop]

Since Richard has failed to respond I figured I would throw in my final 2 cents with a few other quotes that are relevent as well as maybe a train of thought for this.

"Biogeography, as a topic for discourse or discussion, is in some ways like religion: both topics lend themselves to ever more complicated treatment in the abstract. which is apt to border even on the miraculous, but which is apt to crumble in confrontation with concrete facts of life." ~ Nelson and Platnick

Sooner or later you are going to have to come to grip with the concrete facts that corals exist where they are able to survive. Some survive in 78F water, but the vast majority survive in 82-84F water. There is nothing to be proud or ashamed of, it is just the way that is....look to nature for the clues my man...they are there.

"There is a clear correlation between generic contours of diversity (isopangeneric contours) and sea surface temperatue" Stehli and Wells 1971

"....they show that species can be widely distributed, that they have continuous ranges from the tropics to high latitudes, that they do not replace one another along these sequences, and that species diversity attenuates in a manner correlated with sea surface temperatue." Veron on a study done by Yabe and Sugiyama in 1935

"The major features of coral distribution are latitudinal and are primarily controlled by temperatue and climate; regional features are primarily longitudinal and are due to geo-tectonic events. enhanced by glacio-eustatic change concentrating speciation in outlying islands" (Rosen 1984)

"Latitudinal limits are ultimately determined by temperature..." Veron pg. 57

"Physical-environmental parameters that generate biogeographic patterns. tend to be either latitude-correlated (including temperature, light, reef/non-reef habitats and boundary currents), or non-latitude-correlated (including non-boundary sea surface circulation, substrate availability, water quality and nutrients, regional ecology and regional dispersion barriers" Veron pg. 89 ~ This goes directly to what I mentioned earlier about trying to combine general biodiversity with regional factors, they are seperate entities but both part of the whole.

And finally a phrase that as soon as I read it made me think of Dr. Ron's article and past discussions...

"Upstream sources continually supply propagules to downstream locations where they survive, or not, according to ecolgical and environmental factors, of which temperature is the most important." Veron pg. 99 ~If that is not almost verbatum of what Dr. Ron has been trying to get across for the past few years I do not know what is. If you want to know the underlying reason that Fiji has 300-400 fewer species than the center of diversity then that is it in a nutshell.

If anyone is wondering why would I defend this so strongly....I can give you one reason and that is when I first read Dr. Ron's stuff I figured he just had to be on drugs (he is from Montana after all..what does that have to do with reefs?) So I decided to look at whatever I could find that dealt with the subject matter and low and behold it was all there in black and white. He is not some crazy mis-fit from Montana spewing some wild ideas (although apparently there are still some that think this ) but is giving us some common information that apparently has been around since the 1930s...go figure. If I have not said it enough before... "Thanks Dr. Ron!".

Lastly, I was looking through Corals of the World tonight and I can find no better illustration of the effects of temperature on diversity than in Vol. 3 pg. 412 on map #3. If you look at the center of diversity and then trace it north to Japan...this is where the Kuroshio Current runs. It is the fastest and most powerful warm water current in the entire region and starts at the center of diversity region that has "581" stamped on it and heads northward. Look at what happens within just a few degrees from the equator...species drop from 581 to 300 ish. Continue to trace it north until it hits mainland Japan and is slowed and the water is allowed to cool...what happens to species diversity? You betcha, it drops to the 50's and quickly to zero beyond that. What else will it take to prove a point? Really!

 

[rshimek]

[arc]

 

[RichardH]

LOL...I see Richard has made his way back to the forum through a different ISP...congrats. My original words "Not this crap again! " seemed to be quite prophetic..eh?

Saltshop, I'm flattered that you would assume that a post challenging the mythology of warm water would be mine, but let me assure you that I'm not the only person to question the myth nor do I need to hide behind a nom de plume. I'm sure its hard to believe, but there are others who appreciate the vacuousness of your arguments. I also think it a cheap shot to invoke my name on a forum from which Ron has officially banned me. I have no interest in posting here, but I think it only fair that I have a right to reply to this sort of crap.

The poster asked for studies that showed that a hard coral cannot live in 78 degree water. You responded that since there's lower diversity in cooler water that it proves that there are corals that cannot live in cooler water. The fact that fewer corals are found in cooler water does not prove that they cannot live there. There are no indigenous kangaroos outside Australia. Does that prove that they cannot survive anywhere else than Australia? There are many animals that are found in isolation. Isolation is not proof that they cannot survive elsewhere.

The truth is that there are no studies that have demonstrated the narrow temperature tolerance you suggest. There's no experimental evidence that corals living in 84 degree water will die if placed in 78 degree water. None. So until you produce experimental evidence to the contrary, the only accurate statement that you can make is that fewer hard corals are found in cooler waters. Period.

Richard Harker

 

[saltshop]

I'm flattered that you would assume that a post challenging the mythology of warm water would be mine, but let me assure you that I'm not the only person to question the myth nor do I need to hide behind a nom de plume.

I think it is quite obvious from the nine quoatations that this myth of warm water only exists in your mind and those that follow the liberties that you take with the truth.

I also think it a cheap shot to invoke my name on a forum from which Ron has officially banned me.

True, you make a big enough fool of yourself without my help. Why do you assume I was talking about you anyway, there are lots of Richard's in the world? A little self-important aren't we? Funny you should consider the name Richard being typed a cheap shot, but didn't bother to respond to your tank being referred to as a "toilet" in a forum you have access to?

I have no interest in posting here, but I think it only fair that I have a right to reply to this sort of crap.

And I likewise get tired of responding to the crap you put into peoples heads that is based on nothing, but a failure to accept principles of biogeography that have been around for 60 years.

The poster asked for studies that showed that a hard coral cannot live in 78 degree water.

A study at this point would be similar to someone asking for grant money to show that the earth is round. As Veron put it "It has long been known that latitudinal range is primarily limited by temperature or correlates of temperature"[/b] To take the time and expense to study a concept that has "long been known" would just be a waste of time. Just because you cannot grasp the concept does not mean that some new study must be performed.

You responded that since there's lower diversity in cooler water that it proves that there are corals that cannot live in cooler water. The fact that fewer corals are found in cooler water does not prove that they cannot live there.

I have yet to hear you give an explanation that proves it otherwise. The genetic connectivity is there, the surface vectors are there, the available substrate is there, so what is the magic bullet that keeps 300-400 species out of cooler water in both hemispheres?

There are no indigenous kangaroos outside Australia. Does that prove that they cannot survive anywhere else than Australia? There are many animals that are found in isolation. Isolation is not proof that they cannot survive elsewhere.

I don't think grasping at straws and including terrestrial island biogeography has any bearing on the present discussion and only goes toward showing the desperation of your argument. Corals do not live in isolation and is the basis for surface vicariance and reticulate evolution so to compare the two is well, absurd.

The truth is that there are no studies that have demonstrated the narrow temperature tolerance you suggest. There's no experimental evidence that corals living in 84 degree water will die if placed in 78 degree water. None. So until you produce experimental evidence to the contrary, the only accurate statement that you can make is that fewer hard corals are found in cooler waters. Period.

Evidentally approx. 300-400 species do in fact not settle and live at 78 degrees. Why don't you submit a proposal to the scientific community to get the money to do the study? If there is this myth of warm water out there I am sure the grant money should be easy to come by, especially since it will turn 60 years of thought on its head. I highly doubt that you will ever get experimental evidence that the world is indeed round either so go ahead and live in your fantasy world... I can't really help you.

 

[jss]

hi to all,

its been facinating reading the debate over this topic--i.ve found it helpful tho' its been difficult to keep track of the useful points because of the "point scoring" and invective--jeez you guys really go at each other:eek1:

c'mon lighten up:smokin:

john

 

[RichardH]

[The truth is that there are no studies that have demonstrated the narrow temperature tolerance you suggest. There's no experimental evidence that corals living in 84 degree water will die if placed in 78 degree water. None. So until you produce experimental evidence to the contrary, the only accurate statement that you can make is that fewer hard corals are found in cooler waters. Period.

Evidentally approx. 300-400 species do in fact not settle and live at 78 degrees. Why don't you submit a proposal to the scientific community to get the money to do the study? If there is this myth of warm water out there I am sure the grant money should be easy to come by, especially since it will turn 60 years of thought on its head. I highly doubt that you will ever get experimental evidence that the world is indeed round either so go ahead and live in your fantasy world... I can't really help you.

Then do this. Contact every coral scientist you can find and ask them (as I have) whether any coral will die in 78 degree water. Find an active coral scientist that supports this notion. Since you enjoy quoting Veron, start there. When I suggested that hobbyists believe that corals can't live in 78 degree water, he laughed. In fact every scientist I've spoken with had the same reaction.

The reason you can't find any research proving your point is that all the work has been done at much cooler temperatures. There's plenty of thermal limit research data. It's just not done in water as warm as the coolest reef tanks.

Unfortunately your arguments demonstrate a sad misunderstanding of scientific method. The absence of an organism in a given habitat is not proof that the organism cannot live in that habitat. That has been proved time and time again with the inadvertent transplantation of organisms. Think zebra mussels. Hawaii bans the possession of corals for that very reason. Dr. Bruce Carlson for one believes that Indo-Pacific corals would survive and grow if released in cooler Hawaiian waters. Why not contact him?

Be sure to share with the forum your discussions with the scientists.

Richard Harker

 

[rshimek]

Ah, yes...

Richard's opinions...

These are the facts of the world by a person who has chosen to be willfully ignorant. Here we have the facts from a person who has no biological backgound, no understanding of animal physiology, an inability to read the literature, and a defined inability to understand either biogeography and, indeed, general biology.

Case closed.