Another thread on ick. Advise please :(

[TOURKID]

Hi everybody. been a real long day.

I woke up this morning and fed my clown and my anemone
Went to lunch, an hour tops. came back and took a look
The clown (the only fish in my tank) had white on 1 fin tip and around the bottom lip. It dident look like ick, it looked different to me. She was biting her anemone and knocked the white stuff off her mouth. But she was acting weird.

I watch this tank hours a day, and she was perfectly fine and really healthy. them BAM, white stuff.

I watched her throughout the day, and then i saw a spot above her upper lip and below, and I saw somthing on her eye. (wasent white tho)

I tried feeding her antibiotics at this point, and she wont eat now

I set up a quarentine tank using water from my main tank, added a maxi jet to ripple the water, and a heather and thermometer.

I lowered the salinity from 1.023 to 1.020

I added 'nox-ick' 1 drop per gallon.

before i moved her to the tank, she was lieing VERY still in the anemone, now shes swimming erratically in the QT

I tried feeding her agian, just mysis her favorite, with NO medicine (and b4 i put in the nox ick) and she wouldent eat that either

Im a total newbie, and had a complete wipeout losing 3 fish about 1 1/2 months ago. I tried to QT lasttime but nothing was suscessful.

Do i continue to lower salinity until its at 1.009 ? how long should they stay in qt and how long should they have low salinity?

I heard about garlic.. if i can get her to eat should I try this as well? Im so attached to my lil clown and I feel that with my inexperience its doomed and my fault

Any advise will help

thankyou, getting tissues now.
Maggie

 

[leebca]

Don't despair!

Let's get some facts straight. . .

Are you sure the fish has a Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) infection?

A photo would help us help you.

Some additional info would also help IF you are unsure about what is affecting your fish:

What kind of system do you have (tank volume, dimensions, bio-filtration method, the equipment you use, any carbon or other chemical filtration, kind of substrate, etc.).
List all specimens & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, Silica, Ca, Alk., and any others you have)
Water parameters ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Water changes (how much and how often). Have you analyzed your source water for the above chemistries? When did you do these tests last? What is the TDS of your source water?
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

From the little you have provided, it sounds more like a skin irritation, or if the fish was recently acquired, possible Brooklynella infection. Anyway, without more info or a photo we are not going to be much help.

If you are sure it's Marine Ich (MI) and are trying to perform a hyposalinity treatment, you need a refractometer to control the salinity in the 11 to 12ppt range. You should check pH frequently and be prepared to keep the pH steady, in range, by making adjustments to the QT water.

The hyposalinity treatment continues until you no longer see any MI spots on the fish, then starts the clock. 4 weeks after you saw the last spot, you raise the salinity up to normal over a one-week period. Then you hold the fish at the normal salinity for three more weeks to verify the treatment was successful.

If it's MI, then garlic is not your solution/answer to cure your fish.

 

[TOURKID]

you made me cry. this is so frustrateing

ill try my best, im having alot of issues that im sure boiled doen to my fish getting sick

45 gal bow front
sand and crushed coarl substrate.. hmmm... been reading about ick, finally bought a gravel pump 2 weeks ago and ive had problems ever since, it spiked my nitrates so high... ive had ick before, i cant give a timeline, but i was rel close to waiting 6 weeks to getting my maroon if not longer.. but the gravel pump..
could have stirred up the ick that produces in the substrate? it would break the theroy that they dont always live in your tank...

anyways

bioload..
1 maroon clown
1 bt anemone
hermits, 4 snails
2 hitchhiker crabs
polyps...

ph- to low (7.8.. im fighting it with kent super buffer.. not working great)
nitrates-- last week? 30's (at least.. killed my shrimp.) today.. after installing a coarllife super skimmer 2 days ago.. 10
amonia and nitites - undetectable
alkalinity- 'very hard' on a test strip but thats all i have to tell me
ahh.. salinity.... today.. 1.023 yesterday 1.022 day before 1.021 and the day before 1.025 (my lfs convinced me my salinity was thru the roof and i had better do a gallon fresh water change twice to fix it) *ha* my anemone almost became a perma pancake. Im raising it back up with about a tablespoon of salt aday
heat - was dropping a few degrees at night, just got heater working properly 2 days ago after last heater had a melt down



ya.. its been a great month for me. ive been so stressed out about this nearly tipped me over the edge.

eqipment- a c. life super skimmer 65, pc lights 240 watts.. a wave maker (small) a pump with filter floss thats built into the tank (was planning on ripping this off so the skimmer can go on back of tank, right now its on the front..) a theo heater...

water - just founf out about r/o d/i water a week ago while i was battling nitrates, so.. tap water for 4 months, 4 water changes in a week... now using r/o water bought at lfs

lfs r/o water checks out, my tap water was horiffic

tests - been testing like a mad woman latly because of all my 'issues' i normaly do a 5 gal change a week, but last week i ended up doing a total of 20 gallons

I add kent calcuim and buffer every morning, and the salt for now no vitamins or any other chems.

i stopped with the gravel filter

ok last answer to the first question you asked.. am i sure its ick?

nope not sure. fish was fina from 7 am to 11 am, ate, tried to attack the feeding prong (cause it was close to anemone) everything was normal. i come back at 12, theres white foam/fluff/funk on his bottom lip, hes biting his lover anemone, and theres a spot on the side fin, that she was holding agianst her side not using

shes also very suddernly lethargic, not eating, and was just lieing in the anemone (shes a wiggler)


ok.. so now i feel very naked. all my nasty little secrets are out. i try really hard.. maybe to hard at times. and everytime i try to correct a problem another one forms

so heres my big stress question of the night. actually two

1. do you pic a.copper or b. hyposalinity or do you do both? i lowered my salinity in the qt a few ppm's and i dosed with copper

2. im reading all these threads. i have no biofilter that everyonre says is a must in the qt tank. i have a hang on filter i took the carbon out of, and i took a piece of dirty filter floss from my main tank and put it where the carbon go's

now im worried on top of everything else that my treatments are useless because i have no biofilter. can i counteract this with daily water change? hows that work with copper treatment

ok. i can def. post pictures of her tomorrow about noon
2. im going to store to get r/o fresh for top off in case i should lower salinity
garlic for feeding i really hope she'll eat


i really want to pull this off. ill do anything nessassary.

 

[leebca]

I'm probably missing something obvious, but I still don't know how long you've had this fish?

IF it is Marine Ich (MI) you choose either copper or hyposalinity. Hyposalinity is gentler on the fish, but does pose some challenges that a copper treatment doesn't pose. If you have already begun a copper treatment with the right concentration of copper, then just lower the salinity a little bit (1.020 sp. gr.) and control the copper concentration by testing for copper with a test kit recommended by the copper medication manufacturer.

I'm still not convinced the fish has MI. It seems just as likely it was hurt by the anemone or that the fish possibly has Brooklynella. Hopefully some photos will help.

I want you to look at some photos of fish that have diseases:
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=127010

A bio-filter in the QT is not a must. It is very useful to keep ammonia and nitrites at 0. However, some medications do ruin the bio-filter activity. So even if you were using one, it might not be working properly with the copper treatment.

There is nothing wrong with doing frequent, large water changes to control ammonia and nitrites. Make sure the water is the proper pH, salinity, and temperature as the water it is replacing. Mix it well and properly get it ready.

Garlic will not cure or help the fish if it has MI. But if you are concerned about nutrition (and we all should be), read this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

A proper diagnosis is your most important thing to do right now. Focus on that so that you can truly start the proper treatment! :rollface:

 

[TOURKID]

lee. thanks so much for taking your time to help me. i really appreciate it

Its a tank bred maroon ive had about 1 1/2 months

I went to lfs today to get a few things i thought id need, and it turnes out 'nox ick' what i thought was a copper treatment that i used lastnight is actually malicite green

because i have no refractometer, just the swing arm, the lfs advised to keep using the nox ick and leave my salinity where its at

I cant see how the anemone could have hurt her, theyve been toether about 3 weeks.... (anemone looks better without the fish today.. unfortunatly)
the temp. stayed stable in the qt lastnight, fish looks good. i dont SEE anything. she is not scratching. but she is not eating and is staying close to the heater (temp is 82 in main and qt tank)

I bought kents garlic extreame today. i tried to feed her reg. mysis, no eatting, then i tried it with the garlic, and still no good.

looked at pics, then my marroon, then the pics... I donno. if its ANY of these then i caught it very very early. all i see is a little funk on her lip, and either a air bubble, or one dot on the back fin.

Im supposed to use the nox ick agian around 6 pm tonight, unless you think hypo would be better. but the swing arm hydrometer freaks me out a bit....

Going to post this, then take pics, be right back

Agian,
Thank you for helping me

maggie

 

[TOURKID]

wow.. i have about 55 blurry pictures... she felt like swimming as soon as i got to the tank i guess

I hadent seen her face for a few seconds and I began to think i was crazy, her body is in excellent health. then i finally got a front view and I looks like it is spreading to her 'chin area' and there are a few more dots then before. It looks like i could simply knock them off with my fingers (but me and her dont have that kind of relationship yet)

I only got 1 picture out of a ton that you can even kinda see the problem, but here she is ... this is FeeBee

I can try to crop her, but I think it'll just get blurry. I will try agian in a few hours If i catch her laying by the heater agian. (i have a plastic rock cave in the tank too, she slept in it lastnight. If i see her scratching i guess ill need to remove it.

 

[TOURKID]

bump

 

[leebca]

Photo isn't close enough to help me. You need a relatively good closeup with optimal resolution for posting.

Even though an anemonefish can work with the anemone, it is not always impervious to the stings of the anemone. That is how it gets hurt. If this is the case, the fish separated from the anemone should get better. I'd give it some time.

Try putting some vitamins into the water (e.g., Vita-Chem).

If the fish has an injured mouth, it probably doesn't want to eat.

I would obtain an antibiotic and have it ready to use. I'd obtain some NITROFURAZONE (in the product, Furan-2) or some Maracyn 2 for Saltwater fish.

 

[TOURKID]

ugh. im at a loss here. does brook shred the fins? they look like they are starting to fray

and air bubbles from the hangon filter are sticking to her

she swims as close to the top of the water as she possibly can, angling herself so her face gets real close and her top fin doesent

still wont even attempt to eat

I treated her with copper today.. and now im looking at brook pictures and im second guessing myself....

my amonia spiked just enough to be readable on a test, so i did a water change and it brought it back down. try to feed her twice a day, then suck back out all the food. she actually bumps into the food and still acts like its not there.

shes not breathing heavy

I wish there were fish doctors, i could take my fish to.. and he could fix em up with all his experience. even did a search for it. no luck


oh. i heard clown go crazy for cyclopeze, should i try this? garlic dident work..

 

[leebca]

Try to get it to eat anything you think it might like. You might open up a fresh, raw clam and put the half-shell in for it to pick at (if it will). You can try scallop, the way I prepare it:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=769435
Try live foods (live brine).

I would stop the copper treatment. A fish being copper treated will often refuse food. I can't see that you have diagnosed any disease that would require a copper treatment. You need to refrain from just throwing medications at it.

The frayed fins can be a sign of a bacterial issue. Unless some other symptom shows itself, I would go ahead and treat with an antibiotic (after getting all the copper and any other meds out of the water).

 

[TOURKID]

well, before lights out i looked long and heard. theres 1 white dot on her body now. lotz of discouloration on the side fins. i thought ick started on the fins.. but if this is ick, it started on the mouth and tip of fin...

She looked like her underbelly was pink (losing color) but im not sure about it because shes got a fake cave and she was just peeking out of it so im not quite sure

I gave her melafix tonight for bacteria infections.

ill take pictures in the afternoon after i take my dog to the vet for another ear infection..... i think the pictures should show enough at this point

 

[TOURKID]

i think im losing her. she has white poo today. never had this before, and her fins are deteriorating, and her face is swollen. shes right by the surface of the water. and i still havent diagnosed her

 

[leebca]

I would treat it in a QT with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish. I would treat it as if it had a bacterial infection.

It's the suggestion I've provided for a couple of days now. Melafix, you'll note, is nothing I've recommended. It usually doesn't work in these cases. Stick to an actual antibiotic.

To be conservative, during the antibiotic treatment, I would add Praziquantel (a.k.a. droncit) to the QT water to attack internal worms.

 

[TOURKID]

added maracyn 2 lastnight she looks tons better today!! she even acknowledged food. dident eat it tho, swam to it, then kinda backed off

but the swelling went down and her top fin is up

 

[leebca]

When it starts eating, be sure to provide its proper foods:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

Good luck! :rollface:

 

[TOURKID]

omg she ate! She was in her lil plastic cave (whitch means she isent suffering from lack of oxegen and hanging near the surface anymore)

so when i saw her in the cave i thought id try agian. marine cusine, frozen, her sec. favorite food. yay!

now i just need to keep up her water quality and keep her well for.. oh 6 weeks or so *ouch* lol

 

[TOURKID]

lee... in your experiences with maracyn 2... (with coppersafe as well) does it turn the water a terrible yellow color? or do i have problems?

 

[leebca]

It turns the aquarium water very yellow, if you're doing it right!

 

[TOURKID]

sweet!!!! lol