Aquarium Size Advice (probably beaten to death elsewhere)

[champion6sigma]

champion6sigma - I actually have previously looked at both those tanks. Cad Lights is on my list if I want something "pre-made". I haven't decided yet. SCA I really like the aquariums.

The thing that has really kept me from the pre-made packages is I *like* h2overflow or ghost overflow as a solution. I don't really like corner or back overflows because of the space they steal. Also, at this size it would probably be 2 corner overflows.

I also like SCA's large sumps. They have enough chambers to really make use of them. Many included sumps are just big boxes.

I'm not made of money. But when I decide to do something expensive, I get it done. It might take me months or years to prepare, but it does happen. Currently, I'm still determining what that amount is that I have to spend to not constantly feel like "I should have done X". I'm a firm believer in "regret is for suckers". I'm picking most of my equipment around apex ready capabilities because I'm a software architect. I'm going to be able to do fantastic things with a programmable tank controller.

I can't upload a picture. But there is a treadmill I'm walking on currently (treadmill desk) exactly where the tank will go. It can easily fit a 72" or 84"x24+. I have the room. I just haven't decided I can dedicate that much money to the project.

I don't have basement space, the tank will be on our lower floor of a split level. But this wall is actually containing the closet under the stairs. It could serve as a place to put reservoirs. But, my guess is I won't get away with that because my house is terribly short on closet space (only non-bedroom closet in the entire house).

There is a metal or plastic frame on the top and bottom of any non-rimless tank. Not sure what it's called. Might be "rim"

On the sump, If I do a 48x24x24 (which is possible to get approved by the wife), the sump I was going to use would need 50x18x16. Won't fit below. I can scale down the sump, it was just a bit disappointing.

The RO/DI and salt reservoirs are likely to be large tupper totes (or other liquid friendly large container). Possibly on one or both sides of the stand. Sizing wise, I will probably shoot for 2 weeks of water exchange volume based on 10% tank volume per week. If my tank needs more I will either re-fill more often or size up the containers.

I have spreadsheets for speccing out the costs for different builds. Including builds where I save money and build the stand and sump myself. Or hold off on some apex gadgets until I have maintained the tank myself for a while. Etc.

One of the biggest challenges is we may be moving soon. So I'm debating whether I deliberately wait or assume the move is still a few years off and build the system for my current space.

I find ways.

--Derrek

To use that closet you would need to modify your walls, right? And upset the wife probably...?

 

[dleute]

Both ghost and h2overflow require plumbing space behind the tank. I don't love this. Not sure it needs to be terribly accessible. But both of these units need holes drilled for drain and return. These holes are high in the back side of the tank typically instead of the floor. Rim or rimless is irrelevant as far as I know.

I don't think there is any more risk of overflow than on a drain system that goes through the floor. If anything there is less risk of leakage flooding as the plumbing is higher up on the tank. The whole tank can't flood on to the floor due to a plumbing leak. Obviously, return pumps could be a problem but that's true for any drain system. If your drain system stops working/gets clogged, you have a problem.

I like them primarily because of the space available in the tank. Particularly the h2overflow. You get nearly your entire tank. Corner or back assemblies eating into aquascaping space. And H2Overflow does have something called a PVC Tower. This is basically a 3" PVC pipe that goes through the floor of the tank. On a cube, you could put this right in the middle and put your drain and return lines through it. It takes less space than a corner or back overflow. I still don't like the look, but rear plumbing is unnecessary.

It's a neat idea. I do a lot of research like this. I'm not afraid to try new things. But, in the end, cost and practicality may lead me to corner or mega overflows.

--Derrek

Not knowing if you are moving soon...that makes things tough.

So on those two overflows...a tank can potentially overflow from main display with ghost or h20? I looked at pictures of both....other than the tiny amount of space a traditional center back overflow takes....what is the benefit? Moreover, if this tank is next to a wall....how do you access the plumbing on the ghost. or other. And it seems that you need a rimmed tank :hmm6: for the h20 ( guess I've never seen one before in person)

 

[champion6sigma]

I even looked at building the system I want (tank and sump) but making it freshwater until I move. That eliminates a number of costs right there. Protein Skimmer, power heads, salinity probes, cheaper fish... etc.

I also wouldn't bother with a quarantine tank for that. Further reducing cost. Lights could be much cheaper (not sure I would sacrifice light controllability though)

Like I said, I find ways. And that might be the path to reef keeping for me.

If your goal is saltwater reefing....why even bother with freshwater. You might as well just start off with a tank that fits in your home(largest that fits)....and that will fit in the future home. Then get the proper necessary parts (lighting pumps sump skimmer) for THAT size tank only. Wait on the unnecessary stuff like apex and everything else. Wait on the livestock to fill it until you can afford it.

Honestly nobody i think buys a skimmer for a 120 that is rated for 120. Just buy one rated at 200 and you can cover any sizes to 180. Underskimming has to be worse than overskimming. Powerheads...I use mp40's obviously they work for 180 or 120 or 80.

Bigger sump allows for more stuff. Find the right stand that can accommodate the sump you originally wanted.


Hope my 2 cents doesn't offend. I just see no point in making these plans for your third choice (a freshwater tank) or a second choice (taking the time and money to build a fake 180 (a 120 tank) with parts that won't be ideal for what you truly want - the 180.

Even if it takes more time...do the 180 the right way if thats what you really want.

You just seem so anxious now to get something...and when you mentioned freshwater...it sounds like get anything....tank moves are no joke not fun, but they can be done whenever you do move to your new place.

 

[champion6sigma]

Both ghost and h2overflow require plumbing space behind the tank. I don't love this. Not sure it needs to be terribly accessible. But both of these units need holes drilled for drain and return. These holes are high in the back side of the tank typically instead of the floor. Rim or rimless is irrelevant as far as I know.

I don't think there is any more risk of overflow than on a drain system that goes through the floor. If anything there is less risk of leakage flooding as the plumbing is higher up on the tank. The whole tank can't flood on to the floor due to a plumbing leak. Obviously, return pumps could be a problem but that's true for any drain system. If your drain system stops working/gets clogged, you have a problem.

I like them primarily because of the space available in the tank. Particularly the h2overflow. You get nearly your entire tank. Corner or back assemblies eating into aquascaping space. And H2Overflow does have something called a PVC Tower. This is basically a 3" PVC pipe that goes through the floor of the tank. On a cube, you could put this right in the middle and put your drain and return lines through it. It takes less space than a corner or back overflow. I still don't like the look, but rear plumbing is unnecessary.

It's a neat idea. I do a lot of research like this. I'm not afraid to try new things. But, in the end, cost and practicality may lead me to corner or mega overflows.

--Derrek

Sounds interesting derrek. I'd have to do more research on them to speak intelligently about it. I want to say I've read that the durso or one other is safer than other options(your suggestions would be included) but I can't remember where i read it. In my durso pipe system there is obviously one large down drain using simple physics to work/gravity and then there is a secondary emergency line that can work in conjunction and If I'm correct, capable of creating enough drainage of the overflow until it is below both the emergency drain and the dorso...thus there is zero chance almost of leaking from main display and there should be no possibility of leaking from sump. Unless there is a piping problem or tank seam problem...I'm very confident in my system...Losing some tank space is just part of life IMO, I would think it won't be missed in a 180 I wish I had a tank that big!!!

Mine is not even half that size. I got the widest/largest tank I could fit in my allotted space. I will die believing that as gospel truth to live by. We may move into a larger house in 7 years.

 

[dleute]

There are two issues here. Initial cost and possibility of moving. I don't know when the moving will happen, but range is 6 months -> 3 years. Could be longer. There are a lot of factors.

What I was saying is I would buy all the same stuff I could use for either a reef tank or a fershwater tank, but make it freshwater for now. Why? Because of cost. Not having to buy $1,500+ worth of equipment immediately is a nice way to spread out costs. That way if I move within the year, all I'm losing is cheap fish (I have no idea how I would move a complex tank environment and have things survive). Then I buy the remaining equipment for reef, and setup the same tank as a reef tank in the new house.

It's an option that doesn't require me to spend money twice on anything. Limits start up cost and deals with moving in the indeterminate future while not waiting 3+ years to setup an aquarium. And I still don't sacrifice any aspect of tank size. (Unless of course there is no room for the tank in the new house. I probably won't consider a house that doesn't have the space). I can even get all my automation for continuous water changes right on the freshwater tank.

This has the side effect of being easier to sell to my wife. Like I said, I find a way. Even if the roadmap to get to the result is relatively long.

I never take offense to any discussion.

--Derrek

If your goal is saltwater reefing....why even bother with freshwater. You might as well just start off with a tank that fits in your home(largest that fits)....and that will fit in the future home. Then get the proper necessary parts (lighting pumps sump skimmer) for THAT size tank only. Wait on the unnecessary stuff like apex and everything else. Wait on the livestock to fill it until you can afford it.

Honestly nobody i think buys a skimmer for a 120 that is rated for 120. Just buy one rated at 200 and you can cover any sizes to 180. Underskimming has to be worse than overskimming. Powerheads...I use mp40's obviously they work for 180 or 120 or 80.

Bigger sump allows for more stuff. Find the right stand that can accommodate the sump you originally wanted.


Hope my 2 cents doesn't offend. I just see no point in making these plans for your third choice (a freshwater tank) or a second choice (taking the time and money to build a fake 180 (a 120 tank) with parts that won't be ideal for what you truly want - the 180.

Even if it takes more time...do the 180 the right way if thats what you really want.

You just seem so anxious now to get something...and when you mentioned freshwater...it sounds like get anything....tank moves are no joke not fun, but they can be done whenever you do move to your new place.

 

[dleute]

FYI: I grew up with both freshwater and saltwater tanks. My father had a large tank that crashed a few times and switched back and forth once or twice over the course of a decade. And I had a smaller freshwater tank as did my sister.

I loved both. I haven't had a tank in about 25 years. So, if I were to pick one with no other considerations of time, money or space, yes it would be a reef tank. But given the other considerations, I would happily have a large freshwater tank in the meantime.

I'm even toying with ordering a BioCube or similar that I will use as the quarantine tank later just so I can have fish again soon.

I just don't want to waste a lot of money building something I then can't use. But I'm ok with working toward a long term goal.

Hence all these questions. I want to buy the right stuff the first time. Ideally, I won't have to replace anything later. But that doesn't mean I'll immediately build it all. I'll find the most cost effective route and do that.

--Derrek

 

[champion6sigma]

There are two issues here. Initial cost and possibility of moving. I don't know when the moving will happen, but range is 6 months -> 3 years. Could be longer. There are a lot of factors.

What I was saying is I would buy all the same stuff I could use for either a reef tank or a fershwater tank, but make it freshwater for now. Why? Because of cost. Not having to buy $1,500+ worth of equipment immediately is a nice way to spread out costs. That way if I move within the year, all I'm losing is cheap fish (I have no idea how I would move a complex tank environment and have things survive). Then I buy the remaining equipment for reef, and setup the same tank as a reef tank in the new house.

It's an option that doesn't require me to spend money twice on anything. Limits start up cost and deals with moving in the indeterminate future while not waiting 3+ years to setup an aquarium. And I still don't sacrifice any aspect of tank size. (Unless of course there is no room for the tank in the new house. I probably won't consider a house that doesn't have the space). I can even get all my automation for continuous water changes right on the freshwater tank.

This has the side effect of being easier to sell to my wife. Like I said, I find a way. Even if the roadmap to get to the result is relatively long.

I never take offense to any discussion.

--Derrek

Based on your last post...sounds like you've got some experience in both fresh and salt. But it also makes it seem like you know most of the answers to your original post based on that revelation

I think I can see some reasoning behind a freshwater start....but from what I can imagine...the only thing usable is the tank and cabinet? I've never had freshwater so its same about me discussing overflows that are behind the tank(i'm clueless). I'm sure lighting is completely different, flow is different, aeration is more important, different substrate, plants, perhaps an RODI can be retained if you buy one now.

If you make a killer 180 gallon tank I would expect it to cost upwards of 4 - 5 k just for equipment. Then another gazillion on livestock and lots on lots of time, patience.


I think I've spent 5k so far in 4 months on my 60 gallon. I don't even have an RODI yet I went the apex route, apex friendly stuff, and everything well overpowered.

Now that I have coral growing , frag rack, and beautiful livestocking, the money is paying off as I see an amazing ecosystem coming to life in beautiful colors thanks to spending 1 thousand on my lighting (one light and a reeflink and mount)

Your going to have to shell out some big bucks for lighting and mounting alone to cover a 180 well.

You are doing the right thing making lists and cost sheets, its very hard buying all equipment at once, and then its hard not to want to stock the thing quickly too.

I wouldn't worry about the sand maintenance or issues if you go with a semi deep sandbed. It allows for more sea creatures by having a few inches for them. I wouldn't recommend anything too fine. Your going to need powerful powerheads and sand storms are no fun.

That was also a big startup cost for me. Live rock, live sand, live water. I was on a time schedule when I setup the system.

Whatever you decide to do I'll be interested to tag along and see it come to life.

Glad your not offended! Its always hard to know tone through electronic messages. I'm telling you same thing I would tell my brother or a good friend. I always learn more when someone disagrees with me, lots of time automatically assume they are wrong, but it also forces me to do more thinking and research to reaffirm my stance. I'm not always right

I bought two books written by respected authors. One on fish only, and one on reefkeeping in general. I need one more coral and invert specific book to complete the trifecta. They are a great salvation to all the contradicting thoughts and endless opinions of people on forums. I'm able to read something in black and white by people who have been in the field and make a living from the reef. They are a great addition to the help and thoughts and experiences of people here or elsewhere.

Eric

 

[dleute]

I have a childhood filled with fish. A 20-30 gallon goldfish tank in my bedroom (yes, I know now it was too small) and a 100 gallon tank of my father's. I only helped. I didn't actually understand any of it then. But I loved testing water and feeding fish.

I'm probably at least 6 months from starting the build. There are a few things that could speed that up, but none are likely at this point.

Has not having an RODI caused any issues for you?

 

[champion6sigma]

I have a childhood filled with fish. A 20-30 gallon goldfish tank in my bedroom (yes, I know now it was too small) and a 100 gallon tank of my father's. I only helped. I didn't actually understand any of it then. But I loved testing water and feeding fish.

I'm probably at least 6 months from starting the build. There are a few things that could speed that up, but none are likely at this point.

Has not having an RODI caused any issues for you?

Thats awesome. I had no fish, just a dog, when I was growing up.

I now have a wife, a 1 year old daughter, 2 dogs, and an aquarium.

RODI has caused many issues. Waste of money buying RODI and saltmixed RO from LFS, waste of time, waste of gas, and its harder on my back/body - overall just a huge pain

I'm disabled...so I need to just get the system and salt mix and make it here, its smarter.

I'll be researching RO's this weekend and buying in next week or two.

 

[dleute]

Ha! One of the main reasons I want an aquarium is for my son who is 21 months old. I loved watching fish as early as I can remember and I would like him to do that as well. I also have a big dog. And a wife.

I've heard some good things about bulk reef supply RO/DI systems. But I haven't done full research. As far as I can tell, there are a lot of good systems out there. If my LFS can't produce the stuff I want, I will probably buy there. They seem pretty good.

I actually have to re-floor a room of my house before any of this can happen. That should be happening in the next 6 weeks. It's the room the tank will go in. Can't put in a new floor with a 2,000 pound tank in the way.

--Derrek

 

[champion6sigma]

Congrats! My baby girl loves watching nemo swim around. Sadly we don't have big enough fish for "dory" Originally the first small tank was a bday gift for my wife....I ordered the new tank a few months ago and been building it up. I'm hoping when our daughter gets older she was be dads little helper and we will learn about the ocean and fish together. Maybe even do some snorkeling later on...or scuba diving if my health allows me .

I like bulk reef supply, its where i got some of my equipment from and where I'm planning to get the RODI from! Unless I find a better deal or other model I want they don't have....I'm in their reef saver or something program so I earn points for every purchase. Free shipping no taxes and good prices and customer service have made me a happy customer.

What type of flooring are you doing? We tiled 85 or 90 percent of house and it made a big difference for our dogs (cleanup) and also now its a help for the aquarium. I'm prone to water spilling doing maintenance, etc..., feeding...

Just talking on another thread today about a guy who sadly flooded his new hardwood floors. Hopefully the can be repaired. I told him we put in ceramic tile wood planks which looks very close to the real thing. Staggered just like real wood. I wish I could do it, but I physically can't and I don't know how to do it either. Guy on reefcentral did his hardwood himself and can replace it if its not repairable.

 

[dleute]

These are all great points. The only issue I have is I don't know of a way to have a tank pre-drilled for this system. I'm willing to do a lot myself, but drilling glass and voiding tank warranties crosses the line.

With H2Overflow, I'm also considering ordering my tank from the same company. If I do that, it will come pre-drilled (I can even get it tempered, as they will drill, then temper).

I'm a bit hesitant to ask a tank manufacturer that makes their own overflow system (and many do), to drill for ghost overflow.

Do you know any manufacturer that will provide the tank ghost overflow ready?

And are there any bean animal drain "kits" that I can purchase for the overflow. (Even a complete parts list for ghost overflow is something I could work with)

Stuff like this is exactly why I started the thread. I've learned more practical things in 2 days then I've learned in weeks of research.

Thanks everyone!

--Derrek

-More plumbing options including a full siphon Bean Animal style.

-H20 has less linear inches of overflow. Not too mention the ability to remove the ghost overflow weir and go toothless and increase your skimming ability significantly.

-Ghost overflow is a much sleeker design and only protrudes in inch into your tank. You can turn the h20 overflow so it doesn't protrude as much but then you lose one of longer sides for skimming ability.

-i don't know your tank size and how much turnover you want through your sump so this may not matter but the ghost overflow has the ability to move 2000 gph vs h20 1250 gph

 

[dleute]

I can answer my own question. Reef Savvy builds tanks as well. Getting a quote from them with ghost overflow.