To start, I really want to be able to keep corals. I have had my tank set up for 3 months. I have done water check after water check and my parameters all seem okay. The only concern would be the nitrates which reads 10. My pH is 8.2, Nitrites 0, Ammonia .25, phosphates 1.0. specific gravity/salinity is okay. temperature is 76*. The fish seem to do okay, I cycled with several damsels and then got a clownfish and yesterday bought a foxface. If I buy snails, they always die. Crabs are okay. Now the corals are dying. Within the last month I have added a few corals. I have added snakehead polyps, another type of purple polyp, green star polyps, Xenia and a leather. Thus far, everything seems to be "Melting," or dying to be harsh. Since I have put these in my tank they never open back up. I know they are all healthy to begin with, it's just that something is out of whack with my tank and I don't know what. I have an RO/DI unit ordered and it is suppose to be here on Wednesday this week. I plan on doing a 50% water change right off the bat. I'm thinking there may be some undetectable metals in my water that I can't test for. The corals that I bought are suppose to be really easy to keep. My lighting should be ample, I have four 96w PC's (2 50/50's and 2 actinics). I am running a seaclone 100 skimmer and a wet/dry filter. Tonight I took out the bio-balls and put a piece of live rock in the sump. I have heard many say the bio balls are nitrate factories. Couple of ideas. I bought the tank almost a year ago used, I never did ask the guy if he used the tank as a coral tank or a Fish only tank. Is it possible that copper could have been used in this tank and is killing my corals? I'm stumped. I have never had as much trouble with anything like I have had trying to get these corals to grow. I have done endless hours of research on the coral communities and feel I have a good understanding of same. I am open for any ideas. I may take my corals out till I get this figured out and have a family member hold them in their "healthy" tank tilll I get this problem ironed out. Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions, but I'm still a noob myself. Need some guidance. I'm going to try to reach the guy I bought the tank off of tomorrow if I can dig up his phone number at my workplace and see what he did keep in the tank. If he did add copper then I'm screwed. The tank will go up for sale and I will look for another.
At my wits end with corals...help
- Thread starter jmccown
- Start date
I would almost think someplace in there you have copper.maybe even just a small trace but I think it very well could be. Also remember it could of come from your live rock.sometimes LFS buy back rock from people getting out of hobby not saying that it is your case just a thought.I have heard it is tough to test for a small amount of copper good luck and let me know how you make out.Thanks Scott
Fast Fred
New member
Hmmm...Where to start....
The first thing that jumps up and bites me is the ammo in the tank. We need to find out why. It should be 0.0
There could be several possiblities here. How much cured live rock you have? Rule of thumb here is 1 pound per gallon. You could also be overfeeding. Many reef keepers feed sparingly, unless you have an outstanding skimmer, which a Sea Clone is not.
I also hope you have enough live rock to process the ammo since removing all the bio-balls. It's usually not recommended that you remove them all at one time. They are normally removed over a period of weeks, in order to give the bacteria time to grow elsewhere in the system. One way or another, you did the right thing in removing them, even if the speed at which you did it was questionable.
Weaver may be onto something in terms of the copper. It may be since the tank was purchased used, it could have been copper treated at one time. If it was, personally, I would replace it with another. The copper, if there is any, could also be from your water, since you are not using RO/DI. I've never personally heard for sure, but if you have copper pipes in your house, and you're not filtering the water, isn't it possible that some copper is leaching into the water from them? Invest in a copper test and let us know the results.
Please post a number for "Salinity OK"
How are you acclimating the new corals?
Until you figure out the problem, maybe you could let someone else hold onto your corals.
Also, I'm not a fan of 50% water changes unless it's a life and death situation. How about doing a 20% water change every other day for a week or two until you get everything up to snuff?
Never be afraid to ask "stupid questions" here. It's better than doing something stupid to the tank without asking first.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
The first thing that jumps up and bites me is the ammo in the tank. We need to find out why. It should be 0.0
There could be several possiblities here. How much cured live rock you have? Rule of thumb here is 1 pound per gallon. You could also be overfeeding. Many reef keepers feed sparingly, unless you have an outstanding skimmer, which a Sea Clone is not.
I also hope you have enough live rock to process the ammo since removing all the bio-balls. It's usually not recommended that you remove them all at one time. They are normally removed over a period of weeks, in order to give the bacteria time to grow elsewhere in the system. One way or another, you did the right thing in removing them, even if the speed at which you did it was questionable.
Weaver may be onto something in terms of the copper. It may be since the tank was purchased used, it could have been copper treated at one time. If it was, personally, I would replace it with another. The copper, if there is any, could also be from your water, since you are not using RO/DI. I've never personally heard for sure, but if you have copper pipes in your house, and you're not filtering the water, isn't it possible that some copper is leaching into the water from them? Invest in a copper test and let us know the results.
Please post a number for "Salinity OK"
How are you acclimating the new corals?
Until you figure out the problem, maybe you could let someone else hold onto your corals.
Also, I'm not a fan of 50% water changes unless it's a life and death situation. How about doing a 20% water change every other day for a week or two until you get everything up to snuff?
Never be afraid to ask "stupid questions" here. It's better than doing something stupid to the tank without asking first.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Pandora
Premium Member
1. Your lights are fine for those corals.
2. Your water parameters... that 0.25 ammonia worries me. You may be having spikes you are not even aware of that go higher than that, because it really should be reading 0.
3. Is this all in a 75g? I'd slow down before I got any more new fish. This usually just compounds the problem if there is something going on anyway. Are you ok on stocking/bioload?
4. Bio-balls & the nitrate issue: This is always a suggestion that reef tanks don't run as efficiently with them, as say, a sump used as a refugium. But a nitrate of 10 alone is not going to do anything nearly as dramatic as kill all the inverts... ammonia is far more toxic (I think several thousand fold).
5. The only other thing that "jumps out" from the story (aside from the amm level) is that you don't have RO/DI yet. Not everyone without RO/DI will have such a dramatically difficult time with everything dying, but with your circumstances coupled with this fact, makes me think that your municipality or water source could contain an unknown that is worse than just your typical chlorines and chloramarines. Don't add anything to your tank until you get this straightened out. You can also request a free report of what's in your water from the water company, they are required by law to test regularly and give people percentages who request this info.
6. The trace copper thought... is a possibility.
Good luck and don't give up!
2. Your water parameters... that 0.25 ammonia worries me. You may be having spikes you are not even aware of that go higher than that, because it really should be reading 0.
3. Is this all in a 75g? I'd slow down before I got any more new fish. This usually just compounds the problem if there is something going on anyway. Are you ok on stocking/bioload?
4. Bio-balls & the nitrate issue: This is always a suggestion that reef tanks don't run as efficiently with them, as say, a sump used as a refugium. But a nitrate of 10 alone is not going to do anything nearly as dramatic as kill all the inverts... ammonia is far more toxic (I think several thousand fold).
5. The only other thing that "jumps out" from the story (aside from the amm level) is that you don't have RO/DI yet. Not everyone without RO/DI will have such a dramatically difficult time with everything dying, but with your circumstances coupled with this fact, makes me think that your municipality or water source could contain an unknown that is worse than just your typical chlorines and chloramarines. Don't add anything to your tank until you get this straightened out. You can also request a free report of what's in your water from the water company, they are required by law to test regularly and give people percentages who request this info.
6. The trace copper thought... is a possibility.
Good luck and don't give up!
I have what I call "spring water" it comes out of our mountain and is really good water to drink. It is tested by the county every couple of years to make sure it is sanitary, and has ran for the last 20 years. I have always had great success in all of my freshwater tanks, my fish love it. But my corals do not. I have not tested for calcium.
I followed everyones' advice and coralled all my corals this morning and took them to my brother in laws tank for safe keeping till I get this lined out.
I followed everyones' advice and coralled all my corals this morning and took them to my brother in laws tank for safe keeping till I get this lined out.
piranhaking
New member
the ammonia is deffinatly and issue, even if it is not what is killing them is is a sign of a problem, and needs to be dealt with. If the tank had ever been used in fresh water there is a good chance it was treated with copper, as many snail removers contain copper. Good luck.
kau_cinta_ku
New member
just because it is safe to drink don't mean their isn't in the water that won't harm corals. most stuff in water is safe for ppl and freshwater fish but corals and inverts are alot more picky about things in the water. just my .02
Mykayel
New member
I bought a bunch of live rock and a couple of dying corals from a person who couldn't keep corals, they just kept slowly melting away. When I got them home I tested the slainity of the water with my refractometer and it was 1.042!! Two of her corals are now comeing back to life in my tank. What are you using to check your salinity. I would compair your testing devise with the water of yoru firneds tank.
How are you testing your salinity? Do not trust hydrometers! They lose calibration quickly!
Also, .25 ammonia says to me that your tank is NOT quite finished cycling. When I cycled my tank this summer, that was my level at its highest. Cut back on the fish for awhile..
Matthew
Also, .25 ammonia says to me that your tank is NOT quite finished cycling. When I cycled my tank this summer, that was my level at its highest. Cut back on the fish for awhile..
Matthew
I have one of little temp strips that reads out 76 degrees. Would it be possible that this is incorrect. Should I raise the temp to about 80* and see how she flies? As far as fish I only have 2 at the moment. I really didn't clarify that in my first post. I have a very small ocellaris percula and this past Sunday I added a Foxface Lo. I gave the damsels away recently because they are too aggressive for corals and reef safe fish. I am testing the salinity with an Instant Ocean hydrometer. FWIW I also used the Instant Ocean salt. I checked my tap water and all reads 0 but the ammonia, it comes out .25 from the tap. I don't think that's good. Phosphates reads 0 as well. On the live rock, I have about 30-40 lbs of live rock and another 50 or 60 lbs of base rock that was live at one time. The live pieces were given to me already cured with lots of corralline growth. It has been in the tank about a month. I did notice that some of the corralline sort of bleached out, but it is also spreading to my other base rock in other areas of the tank, so I think that is a good sign. Another negative is that I have started getting a little hair algae within the last couple of weeks. The foxface has already grazed it down to nothing. I am hoping that eliminating the bio balls will get my nitrates down to 0 with time. Oh, I also added the PhosBan sock in an effort to get my phosphates down to 0 from 1.0. And with the ammonia, I have read that there is really no way of getting it to 0 but by using Ammo Lock it converts the ammonia to a non-toxic form. I done that about 3 weeks ago.
Sorry for all the long posts, but I have to get this problem solved. I am losing sleep at night over not being successful at this. I know all of you guys are great and very knowledgable and some may have even gone through the same problem. My goal is to be able to pinpoint the problem and correct it. I hate to just assume it is fixed and go by the old trial and error method. I want to have a reassurance and know what I have done has fixed it. I should have my RO/DI unit tomorrow (took a dang week and a half to get it shipped) and I will do several small water changes. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted. Maybe there is somebody out there who is having a similar problem and this can help them out as well.
Sorry for all the long posts, but I have to get this problem solved. I am losing sleep at night over not being successful at this. I know all of you guys are great and very knowledgable and some may have even gone through the same problem. My goal is to be able to pinpoint the problem and correct it. I hate to just assume it is fixed and go by the old trial and error method. I want to have a reassurance and know what I have done has fixed it. I should have my RO/DI unit tomorrow (took a dang week and a half to get it shipped) and I will do several small water changes. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted. Maybe there is somebody out there who is having a similar problem and this can help them out as well.
Pandora
Premium Member
jm, the more I think about it, the more I think your problem is with the ammonia. It *is* possible to get that down to absolute zero, and that is what most people maintain reefs at. If you use one of the color solution tests, it should be as clear as water, with no tint of yellow or tan at all.
I find it strange that it comes 0.25 out of the tap? Are you sure about this? If you are unsure about your test, you can take a sample from tap and a sample from your tank, and take it to the LFS to test. Even trace ammonia is toxic to all forms of life, including people in the form of drinking water. If you have 0.25ppm ammonia in your water, this is something you need to inform your water provider of as well, this is a health hazard, good tasting and mountain-sourced or not.
A quick review of the nitrogen cycle:
Ammonia => Nitrite => Nitrate => Nitrogen
Nitrate is FAR less toxic, as stated before, than ammonia... and is not your problem for sure. Also, the last step of converting nitrate is a very slow one, and rarely happens to completion in fully "cycled" tanks. So in reality, it is nitrate that you likely never see down to 0, not ammonia. What signals the end of the cycling process is actually the appearence of nitrate, this is something I think a lot of newbies overlook. Sure, we want to get this down to controllable levels because we want to prevent algae overtaking the tank or really high levels that can irritate corals... but we are talking about over 40-100ppm in some cases.
Good luck again. Keep us updated on what happens after RO/DI.
PS: You have a very different situation from the person who brought up temperature. Keep in mind that he had NO heater at all... so his water was probably in the 60's range. 76 is on the low end of normal and would not account for the problems you are having.
I find it strange that it comes 0.25 out of the tap? Are you sure about this? If you are unsure about your test, you can take a sample from tap and a sample from your tank, and take it to the LFS to test. Even trace ammonia is toxic to all forms of life, including people in the form of drinking water. If you have 0.25ppm ammonia in your water, this is something you need to inform your water provider of as well, this is a health hazard, good tasting and mountain-sourced or not.
A quick review of the nitrogen cycle:
Ammonia => Nitrite => Nitrate => Nitrogen
Nitrate is FAR less toxic, as stated before, than ammonia... and is not your problem for sure. Also, the last step of converting nitrate is a very slow one, and rarely happens to completion in fully "cycled" tanks. So in reality, it is nitrate that you likely never see down to 0, not ammonia. What signals the end of the cycling process is actually the appearence of nitrate, this is something I think a lot of newbies overlook. Sure, we want to get this down to controllable levels because we want to prevent algae overtaking the tank or really high levels that can irritate corals... but we are talking about over 40-100ppm in some cases.
Good luck again. Keep us updated on what happens after RO/DI.
PS: You have a very different situation from the person who brought up temperature. Keep in mind that he had NO heater at all... so his water was probably in the 60's range. 76 is on the low end of normal and would not account for the problems you are having.
Bluemorningwind
In Memoriam
Ammonia is your problem.
Nitrate at 10 is not a problem.
50% partials are fine providing the fresh water tests well.
Simple things are the most important things. Get the basics right and you won't have many problems. Ammonia is very basic. Work on this first.
Nitrate at 10 is not a problem.
50% partials are fine providing the fresh water tests well.
Simple things are the most important things. Get the basics right and you won't have many problems. Ammonia is very basic. Work on this first.
Pandora
Premium Member
Yes, the deionization part will.
Here's one idea... chloramarine is often added to tap water; it is chlorine bound to ammonia (used to kill bacteria; works like chlorine, but is more stable in water). It's possible that that is the reason some of your water tests positive for ammonia.
