At my wits end with corals...help

I don't think ammonia is your problem. I have an Aquarium Pharmisticals test kit and no matter what water I test, tank water, RO/DI, or freshly mixed SW with RO/DI, I get a 0.25 reading... and its always been this way with this particualr test kit.

You started with cured rock and base rock, i.e. no die off should occur, so I really think your cycle is finished and ammonia is not your problem, espeically if you have natrates and 0 nitrites.

Check your test kit against someone else's.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6632205#post6632205 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mykayel

You started with cured rock and base rock, i.e. no die off should occur, so I really think your cycle is finished and ammonia is not your problem, espeically if you have natrates and 0 nitrites.

I agree that he should test his kit against someone else's. However, just because you start off with cured rock & base rock, certainly does not = instant cycled tank, and is no guarantee of zero die off. As someone who has moved SW tanks 4 times during the last 3 years, I can tell you there is some re-cycling (again... a dynamic process!) every single time, no matter what degree of care you take.
 
*waves hand quickly* I don't use an RO/DI unit.

BUT, I do use a product to get the chloramines out of the tap water (I don't KNOW that its there, but they use chlorine at LEAST, so I ASSUME ITS THERE)

you can get it at the local walmart in the fish treatment section... its called aqua safe by tetra aqua it MUST BE THE ONE SAYING neutralizes chlorine, chloraimine, and heavy metals harmful to fish.

yes, I have a little more algae than others are used to, but thats just something I live with.

IF you are using water from the tap, there is a good chance that chloramine is being used. That would make your ammonia always be elevated, and you have to remove the chloramine one way or another, since it IS HARMFUL TO FISH AND INVERTABRATES and DOES NOT EVAPORATE like normal chlorine does. IOW, whenever you top-off your water, your adding more chloramine without taking out any through evaporation.

there are two ways of ridding your tank of chloramine-the treatment method (my bottle of neutralizer) or an RO/DI unit. The RO/DI unit also removes EVERYTHING, so there ya go.

ALSO, you could have copper plumbing... which would add very little amounts of copper to your tank... making an RO/DI unit even better.
 
Thought...(little bubble pops up over my head,lol). I have a hose clamp that is over top of my sump that is not stainless steel, it has developed some rust since I installed it. Is it possible this could be getting into the tank, maybe particles falling off. I don't know if rust would be classified as copper or not...I don't think so. Just an idea. I will change that out to a stainless steel one. Certainly this isn't helping.

Swan, I think I have some of the AQUA SAFE product that you are referring to. I believe that is what I use on my freshwater tanks. I'll check this evening when I get home. I have never added this to my SW tank though, I thought it was for freshwater only. Man, why can't the UPS guy bring my RO unit a day early. That really sucks...
 
You have to sort out the ammonia first. If you can isolate the reading to a dodgy test kit, then all the better.

Next, examine your acclimation and water change processes

After that, consider Cu.

Etc...

Start with the basics, sort them out and move on.

Insure your basics are fine and you will have few problems.
 
Do you ever run carbon? If you have copper or some other toxic metal in the water, carbon could remove it.

I find that many test kits are difficult to read, particularly the color changing variety, so it's quite possible that you don't really have .25 (which I assume is the lowest positive reading for your test?). You should definitely be treating tap water for chlorine and chloramine, although I'd stay away from the stuff that claims to "coat" the fish. Amquel is good.

If I were you, I'd try running some carbon. Do a good size water change when your ro unit arrives. And double check (at your lfs or a fellow reefers) any/all test results that you can. If the fresh ro water tests positive for ammonia, it's almost cerainly the test kit. I'm not having any problem keeping my livestock alive at the moment (knock on wood) but I have often wondered how I would know if my testing equipment was malfunctioning. I know redundancy is the normal method, but I don't want to plunk down the cash for another set of test kits, thermometers, refractometers, etc. There are some good articles in the chemistry forums about making reference solutions for testing test kits. I'm sure you could either find, or someone could tell you, how to make a reference solution to test your ammo kits accuracy.
 
I was wondering about the carbon and whether it would remove it. Was unsure because I always use carbon in my FW systems, but never in the Salt tanks. I'll do that and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks all for your help.
 
carbon doesn't take copper out of the water: you need a polyfilter for that... I don't know WHAT really carbon takes out, but I KNOW its not copper....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6633327#post6633327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Swanwillow
carbon doesn't take copper out of the water: you need a polyfilter for that... I don't know WHAT really carbon takes out, but I KNOW its not copper....

I'm not arguing, but...

Don't copper based medications specify to remove carbon from the system, then use carbon to remove once treatment is complete?
 
i suppose... I dunno? probably because theres enough in the system in the water column to remove anything bad for the fish, but since copper can be very lowly concentrated to kill inverts, it may not take out enough?

I'm just being a parrot... copying what others have said. I don't use copper, in ANY tank, fresh or salt water.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6633591#post6633591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Swanwillow
i suppose... I dunno? probably because theres enough in the system in the water column to remove anything bad for the fish, but since copper can be very lowly concentrated to kill inverts, it may not take out enough?

I'm just being a parrot... copying what others have said. I don't use copper, in ANY tank, fresh or salt water.

I hear ya. Copper...Bad!

I do use carbon though. Helps with water clarity, if nothing else. Will remove SOME contaminants. Not harmful, from what I've read from qualified sources.
 
Carbon can remove some copper. The issue is that it cannot remove ALL of it, and even if a trace amount is retained, inverts are highly sensitive.

How does carbon work? Basically, it is charcoal that has been "activated" by treating it with oxygen, which opens up millions of micropores. These bonding sites are better at attracting some molecules than others... in particular, organic ones (that contain carbon in their chemical formula).
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6633673#post6633673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Swanwillow
thanks for explaining it better than I can!!!!!

No problem...

Also, I found this statistic that I was looking for...

People are often asking at what levels copper is toxic to inverts. The truth is that this varies a LOT from what Randy Holmes-Farley has posted in the past; varying depending on variables like species, temp, pH, etc. But the answer is that it is very, very small, on the scale of parts per billion, not per million (Dr. Shimek once showed this to be as low as 100ppb or 1/10th of a part per million... that could be toxic to urchins).
 
As I understand it, there are some lab tests that can detect copper on a ppb basis, but they are very expensive. Unless it's more than, say, $500 though, it might be worth it rather than trash your whole setup on speculation.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6633782#post6633782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reverendmaynard
As I understand it, there are some lab tests that can detect copper on a ppb basis, but they are very expensive. Unless it's more than, say, $500 though, it might be worth it rather than trash your whole setup on speculation.

Yikes, you are a bigger spender than I :) I don't think I'd bring myself to spend $499 on a single test kit... LOL. You could probably ask Randy how much he spent, he measured his value to be 10-15ppb in his tank, and being a professional chemist, I'm sure he's got the top notch stuff.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that he trash his setup... hope no one is misunderstanding that. I think we should focus first on other factors we can do something about. There are a million and one things that can cause a tank crash or dying corals in a new hobbyist's tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6633808#post6633808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pandora
Yikes, you are a bigger spender than I :) I don't think I'd bring myself to spend $499 on a single test kit... LOL. You could probably ask Randy how much he spent, he measured his value to be 10-15ppb in his tank, and being a professional chemist, I'm sure he's got the top notch stuff.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that he trash his setup... hope no one is misunderstanding that. I think we should focus first on other factors we can do something about. There are a million and one things that can cause a tank crash or dying corals in a new hobbyist's tank.

I really wasn't talking about a test kit, but a test done at a lab (Which I think you'll find is what Randy did). There have been a couple of suggestions about trashing/selling (hopefully with full disclosure to the new owner) everything and starting over in this thread, I think.

I was just saying, as a last resort before doing anything that drastic, there are ways to test for even the smallest amounts of copper.
 
The .25 ammonia could be a result of everything melting in your tank. But it could be cause for concern. I would definetly bring your temp up at least to 78. I believe the average for the last few months of TOTM has been 80. I keep mine between 80 and 81 depending on night vs. day. I would check out a good refractometer. Something Fishy in PA has one for sale for 37 + tax and it has been working flawlessly for me. Having a refractometer is nice because it is a relatively cheap way to maintain something as vital as salinity. I would stop using the spring water as well. The water could be hard and have a high iron level, which wouldnt be good at all. I currently use Walmart brand drinking water which is RO/DI. You could use distilled water as well. As for chlorine and chloromine, letting the fresh water sit for over a day would allow that to disipate into the atmosphere, bubbling air through it would hasten that process. There are plenty of things to try. In the mean time take a tank water sample to your LFS and have them test it to check your measurements, they can even test copper. Which unless it comes back as positive you really wont need to again(except for possible quarentine use).

So what I would do in this order.

1. Bring the tank temp up to 80, or at least 78 (76 is to low IMO). Do this gradually. I wouldnt go more than 1-2 degrees a day.

2. Go buy drinkign water(should say Reverse Osmosis on the
bottle) walmarts refillable station is RO/DI and they list the last TDS reading on the machine. Do a substantial water change with this water.

3. Take a water sample to your LFS, usually the test for free. Have them run an ammonia test and see if the .25 is accurate or not. If it is do a large water change, hold off on the fish, and do regular small water changes. You can also use Kent Amquel to bring down the ammonia quickly, but it doesnt address the underlying problem. If that problem is a cycle the backteria will catch up but you need to do water changes until it does, if it is dieoff the same, if it is the freshwater you use then it will have to be changed or the system will not catch up.

Have them check for copper as well. If any is detected it is possible to salvage the tank but it could take a while (months). Seachem's Cuprisorb is supposed to be good at removing copper and color changes as it absorbes it. The cuprisorb can also be regernated with muratic acid.

4. Finally i highly suggest a refractometer to check and maintain salinity. I hope this helps. I laid out the best and cheapest way of narrowing down your problems. All you will need to actually purchase is the water and a copper test and cuprisorb if the LFS says the tank had copper. Let me know if you have any questions.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6633972#post6633972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rutledgek
The .25 ammonia could be a result of everything melting in your tank. But it could be cause for concern. I would definetly bring your temp up at least to 78. I believe the average for the last few months of TOTM has been 80. I keep mine between 80 and 81 depending on night vs. day. I would check out a good refractometer. Something Fishy in PA has one for sale for 37 + tax and it has been working flawlessly for me. Having a refractometer is nice because it is a relatively cheap way to maintain something as vital as salinity. I would stop using the spring water as well. The water could be hard and have a high iron level, which wouldnt be good at all. I currently use Walmart brand drinking water which is RO/DI. You could use distilled water as well. As for chlorine and chloromine, letting the fresh water sit for over a day would allow that to disipate into the atmosphere, bubbling air through it would hasten that process. There are plenty of things to try. In the mean time take a tank water sample to your LFS and have them test it to check your measurements, they can even test copper. Which unless it comes back as positive you really wont need to again(except for possible quarentine use).

So what I would do in this order.

1. Bring the tank temp up to 80, or at least 78 (76 is to low IMO). Do this gradually. I wouldnt go more than 1-2 degrees a day.

2. Go buy drinkign water(should say Reverse Osmosis on the
bottle) walmarts refillable station is RO/DI and they list the last TDS reading on the machine. Do a substantial water change with this water.

3. Take a water sample to your LFS, usually the test for free. Have them run an ammonia test and see if the .25 is accurate or not. If it is do a large water change, hold off on the fish, and do regular small water changes. You can also use Kent Amquel to bring down the ammonia quickly, but it doesnt address the underlying problem. If that problem is a cycle the backteria will catch up but you need to do water changes until it does, if it is dieoff the same, if it is the freshwater you use then it will have to be changed or the system will not catch up.

Have them check for copper as well. If any is detected it is possible to salvage the tank but it could take a while (months). Seachem's Cuprisorb is supposed to be good at removing copper and color changes as it absorbes it. The cuprisorb can also be regernated with muratic acid.

4. Finally i highly suggest a refractometer to check and maintain salinity. I hope this helps. I laid out the best and cheapest way of narrowing down your problems. All you will need to actually purchase is the water and a copper test and cuprisorb if the LFS says the tank had copper. Let me know if you have any questions.

Good summary. The rest of us kind of went off on our own little tangents which can be confusing. You pulled it all together nicely.
 
Back
Top