ATO help

[kylathwe]

This is my tank. So I didn't top it off today and as you can see the water level is pretty low in the overflow. My Sump water level still hasn't changed as I'm guessing there is just enough water in the drain to keep it from doing that. Only problem is it is extremely loud now that I let the water level down. It has air in the line from it not being submerged and causing it to be loud.

Only thing I can think of is using a peristaltic pump to pump rodi water since this is baffling me.

 

[Rumjahn]

I have no idea what those slits in the drain pipe are supposed to accomplish. You're better off without them. Replace that pipe with a solid one, and the water level in your overflow will be at the level of the top of the pipe. The higher level will quiet the waterfall. If it's still too loud, there's other stuff you can do (like a Durso). But first just change out that slotted pipe.

Actually, now that I think about it, those slots are probably a failsafe against a drain clog...a snail, fish, or piece of coral covering up the top of the pipe would be bad, unless the water had another route to drain, hence the slits. But that means you'd have to adjust your flows to submerge that pipe, which probably involves restricting flow through that drain.

I would just go ahead and replace that slotted pipe with a solid one and see how that works.

 

[kylathwe]

Ok thanks. This ato thing has been making me scratch my head for awhile. I guess it is a plumbing issue.

 

[Rumjahn]

Definitely a plumbing issue. A defining characteristic of any overflow box is that it keeps your water level constant in the tank that it sits in. You should not be topping off the tank with an overflow in it.

There's something wrong with the return side if the overflow is draining too quickly. You were assuming it was due to evaporation, but I'm pretty sure there's a slight mismatch in the amount of water being drained and the amount being returned. It's draining faster than it can be pumped back up.

Open up all the valves in your system for complete unobstructed flow. Check your lines for clogs or buildup. How old is the pump? Could it be failing? How long have you had the system, and has it always done this, or is this a new phenomenon?

 

[oscarinw]

I believe you are running a Herbie type of overflow system. The way it is supposed to work is that the shorter pipe (the one with the slits) needs to be completely covered by water and you need to adjust the gate valve to the point where your water level is constant between the top of the pipe with slits and the other overflow which is your emergency drain. If for some reason you start getting your main drain clogged, the water will start raising and your water will start draining through the second pipe. The way herbie is supposed to work is that the lower pipe (the one with slits) needs to make a full siphon. In other words, you have no air being sucked into the drain line. So from your pictures, it is possible that the top pvc end was moved placed on the wrong pipe... possibly.
One thing I did not notice is whether you have the 2nd pipe (the one on the right of the picture) as return. If so, then scratch everything I've said because Herbie needs the 2nd pipe as the emergency drain.
The only reason I believe this is your case is because you said there's a gate valve on your main drain and that's very classic Herbie design. Herbie has become widely adopted for being a super-silent system with a redundancy measure. I am planning on going in that direction myself.
Furthermore, If you have an overflow box around the drain lines, then maybe the box needs to be resealed. This would explain your DT level dropping. That would also explain why you are not seeing a level drop in the sump.
REMEMBER: For Herbie to work, the main drain needs to be completely submerged in water but before the water starts going into the emergency drain.
I hope this helps and good luck with things!

 

[kylathwe]

oscarinw-That makes sense, but unfortunately there is only 1 drain and 1 return line. Is there a way to make what I have work without a second drain? I would just like to be able to use an ato lol.

rumjahn-I have only had the system 4 months. It has always done this and we did have to take everything apart and reassemble it when I bought it. I have a gate valve on my drain line, but no valve on my return. I actually just upgraded the return pump about a week ago as the one that came on the system was running sluggish and was only rated at about 280gph. I found a pump on clearance at petco rated at 580 gph for only $7 (score!). So I upgraded that about 2 weeks ago. This has been going on with both pumps though.

I do have to adjust the gate valve on the drain line some though as I just tried to open it all the way up, but my return pump couldn't keep up....not to mention it was terrible loud in my overflow with the water moving about.

System has always done this the 4 months I have had it, the guy who had it before me said he just added a gallon or two of water when it needed it so I'm assuming it did the same for him.

 

[oscarinw]

I would switch what you have for a durso with the risk of making it louder... or even better, Make your system a Herbie and make the return an emergency overflow. This would require you to run your return behind and over the edge. The easiest way to make it work will be to change your pvc with slits for an open top pvc with no slits. Your level will then always be at the top of the pipe. If you have 1 inch holes, you should be fine as your return pump is probably delivering something like 300 gph or so.
I'll put money on that you have a gap between your overflow box and your tank.
Good luck with things!

 

[kylathwe]

Thanks for the advice. Quick question...how would my water level be any different in my sump if all I'm doing is essentially adding an emergency drain?

 

[Rumjahn]

It sounds like your pump is still underpowered for your system, and it's draining faster than the water is being returned to it. You can easily test this buy shutting the drain valve more and more, until the water level in the overflow rises to the top of the drain pipe.

If that occurs, then you have your answer. The system is plumbed properly, but underpowered. In that case, all you need to do is replace the pipe with the slots in it with a solid pipe. As we stated before, this will bring the water level up to the top of the pipe. You might not even have to change your pump. But if you get weird sounds, or something happening like the drain stopping, then restarting itself when the water level rises again, then you need to get a bigger pump.

 

[kylathwe]

Thanks for the help

 

[Rumjahn]

No problem. Let us know what you do, and how how it goes!

 

[oscarinw]

It sounds like your pump is still underpowered for your system, and it's draining faster than the water is being returned to it.

And if I may add, this is only possible if your overflow box is not completely attached to your tank, otherwise, your DT level would always remain at the slits level.
When choking down your drain, be careful because the way it is right now, you don't have a backup drain and if your rate of drain all of the sudden becomes less than the return, then you could end up with water on the floor. Just be careful.
Final diagnosis: your overflow box is unattached to the tank somewhere.

how would my water level be any different in my sump if all I'm doing is essentially adding an emergency drain?

You have to do both things: Add the emergency drain AND choke the main drain to where it is fully covered by water. Then you will have a consistent level in your upper tank but a fluctuating one in the sump.

 

[Rumjahn]

Oscarinw, I don't understand why you think his overflow box is detached from his tank. If he had a leaky overflow, and water was getting in from other than over the top, then the water level in the overflow would be higher than expected, not lower. If I'm reading his posts correctly, he gradually loses water in his overflow, and he's been topping off the water into the overflow, not the main DT. I think his DT water level is staying the same, it's the overflow that's losing water. But I agree with you in that if the DT and overflow were both losing water, and DT was dropping to below the level of the top of the overflow, then there's a leak in the overflow somewhere. I don't think that's what's happening though.

I wholeheartedly agree with the danger of choking off the return. This is something I suggest he does while standing there watching it, not adjusting it and then walking away from it. I thought of it as a test to see if he can recreate the condition immediately, as opposed to over a long span of time.

 

[kylathwe]

My overflow is completely attached to the system. It runs the entire length of the tank vertically and is (essentially) inside the tank. It is not external.

My return section is relatively small (probably only 2-3 gallons) so even if there was an obstruction currently the 2-3 gallons from my return section wouldn't overflow my tank.


You are correct rumjahn, I am losing water in the overflow section, when I don't keep it topped off the water level in my overflow is lower than my DT.

I don't have a way to choke off my return, only my drain. I can see how a durso could possibly help me, but I don't see how the herbie could though. The herbie is essentially the same thing I have now, but with an emergency drain added in. The dialing in and what-not would essentially be the same thing.

 

[eacosta]

So just to make sure...

The pipe on the left is the drain and the right one is the return. Is this correct?

Does the water in the tank remain constant? At the top of the overflow?

The water in the overflow should be below the level in the tank. How far down does it go? It shouldn't go below the lowest slit on the drain pipe. If not, then it is working correctly but may be loud. I assume that is what the gate valve is for tuning the drain for sound. Unfortunately, I wouldn't use it without a second wide-open emergency drain. If the water level drops below the lowest slit, then there may be a leak in the seal between the tank and the box.

Worst case you could put the ATO into the overflow section, but I wouldn't. I would rather figure out what is going on with my system. I believe someone mentioned converting to a herbie. That is what I run and it is super quiet. You could make the return line the emergency drain and use the existing drain + valve to tune for sound. You would then need to buy a hang-on return.

 

[kylathwe]

You are right eacosta. Left is drain and right is return. Water level will go down to lowest level slit. It gets pretty loud so I haven't let it go longer than that.

I guess my problem is I can't figure out how to tune my system now. If I convert to a herbie I would still have the same problem regarding water level.

 

[Rumjahn]

Easy to tune your system. Use a solid pipe to replace the one with the slits. That will bring the water level in the overflow to where it needs to be. I'm guessing you'll be pretty much done after that. If not, start restricting the flow into that drain pipe until the water level is constantly at the top of the drain pipe. It's the slotted pipe that's causing you all those problems. Forget about Herbie, Durso and all that other crap for now. Just replace the slotted pipe with a solid one, and report back with your findings.

 

[eacosta]

The water level will go down in the overflow, but should "settle" at some point. I wonder if you are trying to fight against where the water level naturally wants to settle (e.g. bottom slit) with the gate valve wide open. If you let it drop to the lowest level, can you use the gate valve to play around with the drain speed and overflow "settled" level? I wouldn't run your tank without supervision with the valve partially closed. I just want to experiment a little.

Try removing (and saving) a little water from the tank and see if the overflow level settles at the bottom slit. As you continue to remove water, monitor the sump's return section to see if its level drops. I suspect it should.

If the drop in water level shifts to the sump, then converting to a herbie will allow you to tune the drain speed with the gate valve for sound. The emergency drain will cover you in case the main drain gets clogged due to the valve being partially closed.

Also, is the drain line in the sump submerged in water? Having it under water a couple inches will quiet it some.

As you are trying to figure this issue out just make sure you are not getting large salinity swings. I don't think it should be a problem with a 90g, but just being careful.

 

[Rumjahn]

That's exactly what I told him to do, but he didn't listen.

 

[kylathwe]

I don't know how you are saying I didn't listen. I haven't been able to go get new plumbing yet.

I already have the gate partially closed since my return pump can't keep up with the drain wide open. I will try experiment with taking some water out and seeing where it settles.

My main thing I'm asking now is if a herbie is essentially what I have now with the addition of an emergency drain how will my water level in my sump be any different? If all that is different is the addition of a backup drain how will my water level in my sump go down correctly? I can see where a Durso would work but it is pretty loud and my tank is only a couple feet away from my living room couch.

I would just think since I essentially already have the full siphon effect of a herbie is how do I get my water level in my sump to mimic my evaporation?

Thanks for everyone's help.