ATO programming issues

[dabob79]

I've seen a few oddities with my ATO here and there, and I'm hoping someone can point out where my problem lies and show me a better way to do it.

I've had my Apex set up for almost 6 months now, and it's run flawlessly for the most part. My ATO is managed in two stages, with a virtual outlet labeled ATO_SW and the actual physical outlet labeled ATO. Here are the two programs:

ATO_SW

Fallback OFF
If Sw1 OPEN Then OFF
If Sw1 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 002:00 Then ON
If FeedA 000 Then OFF

ATO

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet ATO_Sw = ON Then ON
If Outlet Water_Low = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Water_High = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Power_Off = OFF Then OFF
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

As you can see, ATO_SW monitors the state of my float switch, and only goes "ON" after the float switch has been in a constant "CLOSED" state for 2 minutes. This is to keep the ATO from switching on and off constantly as slight variations in the water level cause the float switch to "bob". The "Min Time" command is there to make sure the ATO stays on for at least 2 minutes, which is usually just enough time to add enough water to raise the water level appropriately.

As far as the physical outlet, it's pretty simple. It's on if the ATO_SW outlet is on, and it's off otherwise. It's also off if any of my other virtual outlets are on. I added the "Min Time" command at the end to limit how often the ATO can run, in this instance at least 10 minutes must pass before it can run again. This also keeps the pump from running dry too much if I've let my ATO reservoir run dry.

Normally, this works great, and my ATO kicks on and off as needed, running exactly 2 minutes every time. Below is a section of my log from this morning, showing everything functioning normally:

Item Date Output State
41 2016-03-17 07:05:57 -0500 Temp_Night OFF
42 2016-03-17 07:05:57 -0500 Heater1 OFF
43 2016-03-17 07:11:20 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
44 2016-03-17 07:11:20 -0500 ATO ON
45 2016-03-17 07:13:21 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
46 2016-03-17 07:13:21 -0500 ATO OFF
47 2016-03-17 07:34:38 -0500 Temp_Night ON
48 2016-03-17 07:34:38 -0500 Heater1 ON
49 2016-03-17 08:04:22 -0500 Temp_Night OFF
50 2016-03-17 08:04:22 -0500 Heater1 OFF
51 2016-03-17 08:32:41 -0500 Temp_Night ON
52 2016-03-17 08:32:41 -0500 Heater1 ON
53 2016-03-17 08:55:16 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
54 2016-03-17 08:55:16 -0500 ATO ON
55 2016-03-17 08:57:17 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
56 2016-03-17 08:57:17 -0500 ATO OFF
57 2016-03-17 09:01:00 -0500 Fuge_Light OFF
58 2016-03-17 09:01:00 -0500 Spare OFF
59 2016-03-17 09:01:46 -0500 Temp_Night OFF
60 2016-03-17 09:01:46 -0500 Heater1 OFF

Occasionally, though, I get some weird anomalies in the functioning of my ATO. It will run longer than 2 minuets, sometimes 4 or 5. Then it will run again several times after that for less than the minimum 2 minutes, which I just don't understand how. My best guess is, that my ATO pump (aqualifter) doesn't flow as much water as normal for whatever reason, so it takes longer to get the float switch to register as "Open". Then, even though the float switch registered as open, it was still borderline, so it needs to run again a few minutes later. Then I get issues like you see below:

95 2016-03-16 12:59:00 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
96 2016-03-16 12:59:00 -0500 ATO ON
97 2016-03-16 13:03:14 -0500 Temp_Morning ON
98 2016-03-16 13:03:14 -0500 Heater1 ON
99 2016-03-16 13:04:12 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
100 2016-03-16 13:04:13 -0500 ATO OFF
101 2016-03-16 13:09:00 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
102 2016-03-16 13:14:14 -0500 ATO ON
103 2016-03-16 13:14:45 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
104 2016-03-16 13:14:45 -0500 ATO OFF
105 2016-03-16 13:17:26 -0500 Temp_Morning OFF
106 2016-03-16 13:17:26 -0500 Heater1 OFF
107 2016-03-16 13:19:54 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
108 2016-03-16 13:24:46 -0500 ATO ON
109 2016-03-16 13:25:21 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
110 2016-03-16 13:25:21 -0500 ATO OFF

As you can see, the ATO switched on at 12:59, and ran until 13:04:13, a full 5 mins. This could potentially be a problem considering I'm running kalkwasser in my ATO, as too much could be added at once. Then, at 13:09 the ATO_SW outlet triggers on again, but the ATO doesn't trigger until 13:14 because of the 10 minute delay I have on it. When It does finally kick on, it only runs for 30 seconds before it kicks off again. The ATO_SW outlet kicks it off at 13:14:45, 5 minutes and 45 seconds after it originally switched on. So the virtual outlet ran for at least the 2 minutes it was programmed to, but switched off only 30 seconds after the ATO actually started to run, I'm guessing because the float switch finally switched to "Open". This happens again a few minutes later.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how can I make this run better? Am I over-complicating it? Is there something I can do to make it more reliable? I think my main concern is it running more than 2 minutes at a time since I'm running kalkwasser. Can I add a "Max Time" command in my virtual outlet so cap it at 2 minutes as well? That way it would only run for exactly 2 minutes when the float switch has been "Closed" for 2 minutes, and then switch off for at least 10 minutes before running again. Make sense? Thanks in advance and sorry for such a long post!!

 

[slief]

I've seen a few oddities with my ATO here and there, and I'm hoping someone can point out where my problem lies and show me a better way to do it.

I've had my Apex set up for almost 6 months now, and it's run flawlessly for the most part. My ATO is managed in two stages, with a virtual outlet labeled ATO_SW and the actual physical outlet labeled ATO. Here are the two programs:

ATO_SW

Fallback OFF
If Sw1 OPEN Then OFF
If Sw1 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 002:00 Then ON
If FeedA 000 Then OFF

ATO

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet ATO_Sw = ON Then ON
If Outlet Water_Low = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Water_High = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Power_Off = OFF Then OFF
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

As you can see, ATO_SW monitors the state of my float switch, and only goes "ON" after the float switch has been in a constant "CLOSED" state for 2 minutes. This is to keep the ATO from switching on and off constantly as slight variations in the water level cause the float switch to "bob". The "Min Time" command is there to make sure the ATO stays on for at least 2 minutes, which is usually just enough time to add enough water to raise the water level appropriately.

As far as the physical outlet, it's pretty simple. It's on if the ATO_SW outlet is on, and it's off otherwise. It's also off if any of my other virtual outlets are on. I added the "Min Time" command at the end to limit how often the ATO can run, in this instance at least 10 minutes must pass before it can run again. This also keeps the pump from running dry too much if I've let my ATO reservoir run dry.

Normally, this works great, and my ATO kicks on and off as needed, running exactly 2 minutes every time. Below is a section of my log from this morning, showing everything functioning normally:

Item Date Output State
41 2016-03-17 07:05:57 -0500 Temp_Night OFF
42 2016-03-17 07:05:57 -0500 Heater1 OFF
43 2016-03-17 07:11:20 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
44 2016-03-17 07:11:20 -0500 ATO ON
45 2016-03-17 07:13:21 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
46 2016-03-17 07:13:21 -0500 ATO OFF
47 2016-03-17 07:34:38 -0500 Temp_Night ON
48 2016-03-17 07:34:38 -0500 Heater1 ON
49 2016-03-17 08:04:22 -0500 Temp_Night OFF
50 2016-03-17 08:04:22 -0500 Heater1 OFF
51 2016-03-17 08:32:41 -0500 Temp_Night ON
52 2016-03-17 08:32:41 -0500 Heater1 ON
53 2016-03-17 08:55:16 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
54 2016-03-17 08:55:16 -0500 ATO ON
55 2016-03-17 08:57:17 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
56 2016-03-17 08:57:17 -0500 ATO OFF
57 2016-03-17 09:01:00 -0500 Fuge_Light OFF
58 2016-03-17 09:01:00 -0500 Spare OFF
59 2016-03-17 09:01:46 -0500 Temp_Night OFF
60 2016-03-17 09:01:46 -0500 Heater1 OFF

Occasionally, though, I get some weird anomalies in the functioning of my ATO. It will run longer than 2 minuets, sometimes 4 or 5. Then it will run again several times after that for less than the minimum 2 minutes, which I just don't understand how. My best guess is, that my ATO pump (aqualifter) doesn't flow as much water as normal for whatever reason, so it takes longer to get the float switch to register as "Open". Then, even though the float switch registered as open, it was still borderline, so it needs to run again a few minutes later. Then I get issues like you see below:

95 2016-03-16 12:59:00 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
96 2016-03-16 12:59:00 -0500 ATO ON
97 2016-03-16 13:03:14 -0500 Temp_Morning ON
98 2016-03-16 13:03:14 -0500 Heater1 ON
99 2016-03-16 13:04:12 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
100 2016-03-16 13:04:13 -0500 ATO OFF
101 2016-03-16 13:09:00 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
102 2016-03-16 13:14:14 -0500 ATO ON
103 2016-03-16 13:14:45 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
104 2016-03-16 13:14:45 -0500 ATO OFF
105 2016-03-16 13:17:26 -0500 Temp_Morning OFF
106 2016-03-16 13:17:26 -0500 Heater1 OFF
107 2016-03-16 13:19:54 -0500 ATO_Sw ON
108 2016-03-16 13:24:46 -0500 ATO ON
109 2016-03-16 13:25:21 -0500 ATO_Sw OFF
110 2016-03-16 13:25:21 -0500 ATO OFF

As you can see, the ATO switched on at 12:59, and ran until 13:04:13, a full 5 mins. This could potentially be a problem considering I'm running kalkwasser in my ATO, as too much could be added at once. Then, at 13:09 the ATO_SW outlet triggers on again, but the ATO doesn't trigger until 13:14 because of the 10 minute delay I have on it. When It does finally kick on, it only runs for 30 seconds before it kicks off again. The ATO_SW outlet kicks it off at 13:14:45, 5 minutes and 45 seconds after it originally switched on. So the virtual outlet ran for at least the 2 minutes it was programmed to, but switched off only 30 seconds after the ATO actually started to run, I'm guessing because the float switch finally switched to "Open". This happens again a few minutes later.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how can I make this run better? Am I over-complicating it? Is there something I can do to make it more reliable? I think my main concern is it running more than 2 minutes at a time since I'm running kalkwasser. Can I add a "Max Time" command in my virtual outlet so cap it at 2 minutes as well? That way it would only run for exactly 2 minutes when the float switch has been "Closed" for 2 minutes, and then switch off for at least 10 minutes before running again. Make sense? Thanks in advance and sorry for such a long post!!

Your programming logic is sound and I am not sure I would change that. My thinking regarding your issue is your pump. Those Aqualifter pumps aren't the most robust pumps and running kalk through it can cause restrictions inside the pump.

You can add a max time command to keep the pump on for no more than a preset length of time. Take a look at this thread as it kind of pertains to your application.
https://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?11502-Is-there-a-way-to-do-MAX-TIME&highlight=time

If it were me, I would ditch that pump and switch to something more reliable, more consistent and better built such as a litermeter slave pump or a Stenner pump. The Litermeter slave pumps with the AC Adapter are fairly cheap and damn near bullet proof. The Stenners are much more expensive but they are completely bulletproof and designed for chemical transfer applications. I use a Stenner for my ATO but the Litermeters are a great pump and infinitely better than that AquaLifter.

This is the pump I am talking about.
http://spectrapure.com/DOSING-TOP-OFF/LITERMETER-DOSING-SYSTEMS/Basic-LiterMeter®-Dosing-Pump

 

[dabob79]

Thanks for the help! Here's what I did, let me know what you think. Additions are in bold. First, the virtual outlets:

ATO_Sw

Fallback OFF
If Sw1 OPEN Then OFF
If Sw1 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 002:00 Then ON
If FeedA 000 Then OFF

ATO_Max

Set OFF
If Outlet ATO = ON Then ON
Defer 002:30 Then ON

And now the physical outlet:

ATO

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet ATO_Sw = ON Then ON
If Outlet ATO_Max = ON Then OFF
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF
If Outlet Water_Low = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Water_High = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Power_Off = OFF Then OFF
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

 

[slief]

Thanks for the help! Here's what I did, let me know what you think. Additions are in bold. First, the virtual outlets:

ATO_Sw

Fallback OFF
If Sw1 OPEN Then OFF
If Sw1 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 002:00 Then ON
If FeedA 000 Then OFF

ATO_Max

Set OFF
If Outlet ATO = ON Then ON
Defer 002:30 Then ON

And now the physical outlet:

ATO

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet ATO_Sw = ON Then ON
If Outlet ATO_Max = ON Then OFF
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF
If Outlet Water_Low = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Water_High = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Power_Off = OFF Then OFF
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

I think that should work. I would still look into getting rid of that Aqualifter. If your ATO pump isn't working right and isn't pumping the needed water, you're going to have issues. Those pumps are notorious for failing and I personally wouldn't trust one for critical duty like that. From what you described in your first post, it appears that pump is already giving you issues. The only other scenario would be a float switch issue assuming you opted for those cheap eBay or Amazon float switches which are also prone to failure. That's another area that isn't worth compromising on. I use Reef Fanatic float switches which I have run for over 5 years now without a single failure and I have several in my system. The other good float switch are the ones made by Madison. I prefer the Reef Fanatic ones which happen to be made by Madison because they have a single cable coming out of the switch with two wires inside of the it. This makes for a better seal going into the float shaft than the typical two wire ones.

 

[dabob79]

I think that should work. I would still look into getting rid of that Aqualifter. If your ATO pump isn't working right and isn't pumping the needed water, you're going to have issues. Those pumps are notorious for failing and I personally wouldn't trust one for critical duty like that. From what you described in your first post, it appears that pump is already giving you issues. The only other scenario would be a float switch issue assuming you opted for those cheap eBay or Amazon float switches which are also prone to failure. That's another area that isn't worth compromising on. I use Reef Fanatic float switches which I have run for over 5 years now without a single failure and I have several in my system. The other good float switch are the ones made by Madison. I prefer the Reef Fanatic ones which happen to be made by Madison because they have a single cable coming out of the switch with two wires inside of the it. This makes for a better seal going into the float shaft than the typical two wire ones.

Thanks! I do have a spare aqualifter for when this one quits, but I'll probably go with something better once the spare is done for. I don't think my float switches are cheap, they're made by Digital Aquatics. I originally got them with my Reef Keeper but then I sold that to buy the Apex and kept the float switches. If I start having any problem with them I'll look into better ones as well. Thanks again!