Attention WV PET OWNERS
- Thread starter mcox33
- Start date
I can see it from both sides because I've been a farmer and had to worry about diseases in my herd. I believe Gus Douglas tries to do whats best for state agriculture which in turn increases revenue and business in WV. I think before anyone jumps on their high horse they should read the senate bill 384 for themselves before believing everything put out by animal rights groups. It's ridiculous to think the state has the time/money to go into peoples homes to jerk their pets out and have them examined. This would only be in times of severe outbreak of disease. Gus Douglas and others work hard to make sure that doesn't happen in WV, hence the laws.
I work with animal rescue and love my pets and livestock but don't agree much with animal rights groups. They don't see things from any side but their own. Which means they feel everyone but them is wrong. Use your own minds before mindlessly following others.
I work with animal rescue and love my pets and livestock but don't agree much with animal rights groups. They don't see things from any side but their own. Which means they feel everyone but them is wrong. Use your own minds before mindlessly following others.
Altpers0na-old
Reefer
i had my doubts about the way the original post looked, so i checked up on it...
i dont know about bothering with the tinyurl.com stuff, google will tell you all you should need....
i dont know about bothering with the tinyurl.com stuff, google will tell you all you should need....
Thank you very much for the link, Altpers0na. Try this for the google http://www.google.com/search?q=west+virginia+senate+bill+384&start
Below is the states definition of domestic and non-native animals. Doesn't make me tremble.
(3) "Domestic animal" means an animal which, through extremely long association with humans, has been bred to a degree that resulted in genetic changes affecting the temperament, color, conformation or other attributes of the species to an extent that makes the animal unique and distinguishable from wild members of the species and the animal has federally approved biologics for the treatment and prevention of disease.
(4) "Nonnative species" means any animal, other than a domestic animal or wildlife, and includes crossbreeds of animals that do not occur naturally either presently or historically within the boundaries of this state, as well as, all species listed as threatened or endangered in accordance with 16 U.S.C. §1533 not presently or historically native to this state.
Geez, don't see anything below stating they can seize my property for failure to pay boarding or care of animal fees...hmmmm.
Costs of care for seized animal; bond; placement.
(a) The owner of a nonnative species seized by the board is liable for all costs of treatment and care while the nonnative species is under the control of the board.
(b) The board shall determine the appropriate placement of the seized nonnative species based upon the threat posed by the nonnative species.
(c) The board may require an owner to post a bond in an amount and form to be determined by the board which is sufficient to provide for the reasonable costs of treatment and care of the nonnative species during the period of confinement. If an owner fails to post the required bond, the board may, after notice and an opportunity for the owner to be heard, declare the nonnative species forfeited to the state.
(d) A nonnative species seized by the board in accordance with the provisions of this article may be returned to the owner only if the board determines that the nonnative species poses no threat to humans, other animals or plant life.
As I suspected, the claims made by the animal rights group are exagerated, dramatized, and/or out right lies. Read it for yourselves. We all know there are pet stores and back yard breeders that do need controlled to protect the animals, and yes, the native and domestic animals of WV. So the law is actually a good thing. Below is the real purpose for the law.
NOTE: The purpose of this bill is to provide for a scheme of regulation for the sale, possession and breeding of nonnative species. Toward this goal the bill contains provisions which address the following: (1) Defining certain terms; (2) creating the Nonnative Species Regulation Board; (3) establishing duties; (4) establishing a special revenue account and authorizing expenditures; (5) providing rule-making authority; (6) delineating the jurisdiction of member agencies; (7) providing owner liable for the cost of care of seized nonnative species and bonding requirements; (8) requiring pet shop registration, renewal and fee; (9) requiring pet shop to keep records and provide certain notification; (10) requiring permit to possess or breed nonnative species and providing permit application process and permit requirements; (11) providing for exemptions; (12) requiring identification number on nonnative species; (13) establishing caging, care and treatment requirements; (14) requiring liability insurance; (15) authorizing certain inspections; (16) providing for denial of a permit; (17) specifying conditions under which nonnative species may be seized; and (18) establishing civil and criminal penalties.
Below is the states definition of domestic and non-native animals. Doesn't make me tremble.
(3) "Domestic animal" means an animal which, through extremely long association with humans, has been bred to a degree that resulted in genetic changes affecting the temperament, color, conformation or other attributes of the species to an extent that makes the animal unique and distinguishable from wild members of the species and the animal has federally approved biologics for the treatment and prevention of disease.
(4) "Nonnative species" means any animal, other than a domestic animal or wildlife, and includes crossbreeds of animals that do not occur naturally either presently or historically within the boundaries of this state, as well as, all species listed as threatened or endangered in accordance with 16 U.S.C. §1533 not presently or historically native to this state.
Geez, don't see anything below stating they can seize my property for failure to pay boarding or care of animal fees...hmmmm.
Costs of care for seized animal; bond; placement.
(a) The owner of a nonnative species seized by the board is liable for all costs of treatment and care while the nonnative species is under the control of the board.
(b) The board shall determine the appropriate placement of the seized nonnative species based upon the threat posed by the nonnative species.
(c) The board may require an owner to post a bond in an amount and form to be determined by the board which is sufficient to provide for the reasonable costs of treatment and care of the nonnative species during the period of confinement. If an owner fails to post the required bond, the board may, after notice and an opportunity for the owner to be heard, declare the nonnative species forfeited to the state.
(d) A nonnative species seized by the board in accordance with the provisions of this article may be returned to the owner only if the board determines that the nonnative species poses no threat to humans, other animals or plant life.
As I suspected, the claims made by the animal rights group are exagerated, dramatized, and/or out right lies. Read it for yourselves. We all know there are pet stores and back yard breeders that do need controlled to protect the animals, and yes, the native and domestic animals of WV. So the law is actually a good thing. Below is the real purpose for the law.
NOTE: The purpose of this bill is to provide for a scheme of regulation for the sale, possession and breeding of nonnative species. Toward this goal the bill contains provisions which address the following: (1) Defining certain terms; (2) creating the Nonnative Species Regulation Board; (3) establishing duties; (4) establishing a special revenue account and authorizing expenditures; (5) providing rule-making authority; (6) delineating the jurisdiction of member agencies; (7) providing owner liable for the cost of care of seized nonnative species and bonding requirements; (8) requiring pet shop registration, renewal and fee; (9) requiring pet shop to keep records and provide certain notification; (10) requiring permit to possess or breed nonnative species and providing permit application process and permit requirements; (11) providing for exemptions; (12) requiring identification number on nonnative species; (13) establishing caging, care and treatment requirements; (14) requiring liability insurance; (15) authorizing certain inspections; (16) providing for denial of a permit; (17) specifying conditions under which nonnative species may be seized; and (18) establishing civil and criminal penalties.
mcox33
New member
I don't know how many of you did or did not grow up on a farm, but I did. And I happen to know what the state considers non-native species. If it doesn't live here without our care in the wild then it is non native. My birds would come under this new format of laws. Personally I think our state as well as the national government, are taking away to many of our rights now. And they will continue to do so because so many people want to believe that they are doing what is best for us, (the people they are suppose to represent)
Oh just so you all know this would also include saltwater fish and inverts as there is no saltwater naturally anywhere in WV. It would also mean that our pet shops would have to keep and maintain records of every saltwater animal they sell, Those records would include when they recieved it, where it came from and who bought it where they live and what size tank it would go into. All these records would then have to be turned over to the state on a regular basis, at which time they could and would send someone out to your home to check the condition of the animal. Perhaps it has grown to inches since you purchased it. So now the state wants it in a larger tank. You don't need or want a larger tank, so the agent of the state confiscates your animal. You then will be charged the cost of setting up a tank and maintaining it while the state decides whether or not you can have it back. Probably not unless you ran out and bought that new tank. Then what do they do with the animal. Kill it. They can't make you pay for it's upkeep after all the processes are done with, or will they. Maybe you can pay for the upkeep for the lifetime of the animal, and perhaps if you are lucky they will allow you visiting rights.
I do not think my Macaws will ever be considered native to WV. They could never take the cold outside in the winter. Yet I know how to care for them and do not need the added bonus that the state can say they have to have a cage a certain size even though they do not stay in cages. This is ridculous. We don't need more government we need less. Personally I do not need the state having records of what pets I have or don't have, that is personal and no ones business but my own.
Politicians need to pass laws that make sense and protect our rights, not laws to limit or take away our rights.
In other words they need to tend to their own house, and leave mine alone.
Oh just so you all know this would also include saltwater fish and inverts as there is no saltwater naturally anywhere in WV. It would also mean that our pet shops would have to keep and maintain records of every saltwater animal they sell, Those records would include when they recieved it, where it came from and who bought it where they live and what size tank it would go into. All these records would then have to be turned over to the state on a regular basis, at which time they could and would send someone out to your home to check the condition of the animal. Perhaps it has grown to inches since you purchased it. So now the state wants it in a larger tank. You don't need or want a larger tank, so the agent of the state confiscates your animal. You then will be charged the cost of setting up a tank and maintaining it while the state decides whether or not you can have it back. Probably not unless you ran out and bought that new tank. Then what do they do with the animal. Kill it. They can't make you pay for it's upkeep after all the processes are done with, or will they. Maybe you can pay for the upkeep for the lifetime of the animal, and perhaps if you are lucky they will allow you visiting rights.
I do not think my Macaws will ever be considered native to WV. They could never take the cold outside in the winter. Yet I know how to care for them and do not need the added bonus that the state can say they have to have a cage a certain size even though they do not stay in cages. This is ridculous. We don't need more government we need less. Personally I do not need the state having records of what pets I have or don't have, that is personal and no ones business but my own.
Politicians need to pass laws that make sense and protect our rights, not laws to limit or take away our rights.
In other words they need to tend to their own house, and leave mine alone.
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firefish2020
New member
Let me say something on this, first of all <b>Mary only posted this because I thought some of you may like to know how some are viewing your rights to own and SELL some captive bread animals. </b>
<b>DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE MESSAGE.</b> This has nothing to do with so called animal rights groups and everything to do with this ridiculous bill which by definition does give a very small group of UNEDUCATED beurocrats the rights to make definitions of "NONNATIVE" and or "DANGEROUS" animals.
Mary is concerned for her birds which by definition could be considered Non native or dangerous in the event of an out break of Avian Influenza. At state levels it would only take a handful of misinformation and over-reactions to cause such a "panel" to call for the removal and extermination of any and all birds, these people do not need this right. If such a panel were to be formed it should be headed by educated members and far more than just three.
If you think paranoid power mongers have the rights to invade into our homes even more than they already do than that's fine too, but remember it's easy to take away privileges and make new laws rather than add privileges and repeal laws.
ALSO: This law would hurt pet stores and those who seek rare and exotics such as reptiles more than any other I believe. I don't think anyone is going after fish but hey there are venomous species in our systems so by definition of the bill the power to seize and or destroy is there.
BTW I would not recommend defining coral for them either, as far as they are concerned they fall into the same category as plants so they should'nt pose a threat.
BTW ignore the next two posts RC board is messed up.
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firefish2020
New member
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firefish2020
New member
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Altpers0na-old
Reefer
i thought coral were animals. not the smartest animals mind you but, something to do with cell walls or something, heck what do i know put light on em and they grow....
firefish2020
New member
They are, I was demonstrating the kind of intelligence at work in this matter.
I can understand Mary being worried over her birds but to think the state has the money to be pulling pets out of peoples home is unrealistic. We would have to be having an epidemic going on for the state to do such a thing. Even then indoor pets would be the last thing they would be worried about. We're not like the countries where avian flu has hit, those people live in close contact with their outdoor birds. Most people in the US, even in WV
, do not live with their chickens. If Mary's birds have no contact with the outdoors she has nothing to worry about. You wouldn't believe how the state tracks livestock, it has been difficult for farmers to implement the laws but it is a necessity to be able to track a disease in our food chain and irradicate it. I get the WV agriculture dept newsletter every month. There's so much information in there and if everyone really understood how these laws work and how they protect most wouldn't get so upset. I'm sorry this will effect pet stores but it's already gotten to the farmers so it's just the way it has to be. You all know there are pet stores out there and people who import/sell animals that are endangered or should never be in captivity. It's the same as trying to get people to quit buying flower pot corals, etc, that only die in captivity. Or they keep the animals in terrible conditions. Some things just need regulated.
Lana
There has been controversy over water turtles for years. When I was a child every dime store sold them. Murphy's and Woolsworth was my favorite places to go to see the animals. Then they found out that they spread salmonella. There was a ban put on them and you could no longer purchase or own a red eared slider. It was illegal to own one. If you had one you were to destroy it. This meant our family never put them outside again so neighbors could see we had them, we kept them for years! I was a kid then and did not understand the law. As an adult I have always loved turtles and have several different species that I have gotten in other states. The only way you can purchase a turtle in WV under 4" in diameter is if it is for educational purposes and you sign a statement that it is for education only. In Ohio you can buy a water turtle with no questions. WV is restricting the turtles because a turtle that is 4 in" is to big for a child to stick in to it's mouth and get salmonella. They also believe a turtle that is 4" doesn't carry salmonella......what sense does that make? Sliders are native to WV, but some of my turtles are not.
I don't know enough about this bill to decide but I do want to know more about it.
I am concerned there are way too many puppy farmers out there. The animals are being bred everytime there is a heat. Sickly pups are being sold for top $ and the animals are growing up with health problems. I would think the CKC or the AKC already have the information that shows who the puppy farmers are and when animals are being overbred. They (CKC/AKC) probably have no one to work with that will get involved in the over breeding.
That's my 2 cents!
If you can put the bill into plain english I would really like to know what the proposal is!
I don't know enough about this bill to decide but I do want to know more about it.
I am concerned there are way too many puppy farmers out there. The animals are being bred everytime there is a heat. Sickly pups are being sold for top $ and the animals are growing up with health problems. I would think the CKC or the AKC already have the information that shows who the puppy farmers are and when animals are being overbred. They (CKC/AKC) probably have no one to work with that will get involved in the over breeding.
That's my 2 cents!
If you can put the bill into plain english I would really like to know what the proposal is!
Altpers0na-old
Reefer
I posted the links i did basically for the same reasons lana gave.... most stuff that comes around like that is bunk... or bunk ish....
this had a decent basis in reality... unlike bill gate sending you 10 bucks... or yahoo deleting all accounts that dont send something to an email address, or dont add this person to your instant messenger list because you will get a virus...
i recomend all animal collectors / enthusiasts (spelling?) find a copy of the penn & teller show they did about animal rights activists... not that im against animal rights, just does a good job of putting some light in dark areas...
what i read in the bill, said basically what the original post was concerned with...
the state would regulate animals. including licensing and banning... with an aim at non natives... this affects turtles, birds, fish, insects? i guess, and other whatevers....
so it makes it harder to have an anaconda in your basement... and it makes it harder to get a clown fish... legally that is...
for those who want to be offended... this isnt the bill to be mad about... find a pork barrel bill to get up in arms over....
otherwise do as the original post says and contact your reps and make a stink so your local pet shop owners and regular animals are protected from bad legislation... as far as contacting your reps go, this is where lobbiests come into play... like the state wide pet lovers association or the lfs alliance... (donations / services / ect.... ) we all know how that works.... we talking about politicians here come on... surely some of them have a parrot or turtle... or a fish...
ok, done ranting... glad i live in ky....
ok, not done ranting...
they are going to regulate tropical fish? you can do anything in wv. go to a bar as long as your old enough to walk.... you can buy whiskey at 9 am on a sunday.... gambling, soon table games.... , thost special all inclusive "dollar bill" bars... and guns, sheesh, you can buy 100 hand guns with no permit and no checks or training on any day of the week.... and no waiting period... heres a quote i liike
"JUVENILE SALE
Is it illegal to sell guns to kids? Yes
State law restricts selling or giving firearms to juveniles under 18, except for supervised loans of firearms or for limited lawful activities (such as hunting)."
that says you cant sell a gun to a kid for non lawfull activities.. no wonder the detroit 'rock' city people like wv so much... sheesh...welcome to wv have a handgun...
and for the record im pro gun. but i know funny when i see it
this had a decent basis in reality... unlike bill gate sending you 10 bucks... or yahoo deleting all accounts that dont send something to an email address, or dont add this person to your instant messenger list because you will get a virus...
i recomend all animal collectors / enthusiasts (spelling?) find a copy of the penn & teller show they did about animal rights activists... not that im against animal rights, just does a good job of putting some light in dark areas...
what i read in the bill, said basically what the original post was concerned with...
the state would regulate animals. including licensing and banning... with an aim at non natives... this affects turtles, birds, fish, insects? i guess, and other whatevers....
so it makes it harder to have an anaconda in your basement... and it makes it harder to get a clown fish... legally that is...
for those who want to be offended... this isnt the bill to be mad about... find a pork barrel bill to get up in arms over....
otherwise do as the original post says and contact your reps and make a stink so your local pet shop owners and regular animals are protected from bad legislation... as far as contacting your reps go, this is where lobbiests come into play... like the state wide pet lovers association or the lfs alliance... (donations / services / ect.... ) we all know how that works.... we talking about politicians here come on... surely some of them have a parrot or turtle... or a fish...
ok, done ranting... glad i live in ky....
ok, not done ranting...
they are going to regulate tropical fish? you can do anything in wv. go to a bar as long as your old enough to walk.... you can buy whiskey at 9 am on a sunday.... gambling, soon table games.... , thost special all inclusive "dollar bill" bars... and guns, sheesh, you can buy 100 hand guns with no permit and no checks or training on any day of the week.... and no waiting period... heres a quote i liike
"JUVENILE SALE
Is it illegal to sell guns to kids? Yes
State law restricts selling or giving firearms to juveniles under 18, except for supervised loans of firearms or for limited lawful activities (such as hunting)."
that says you cant sell a gun to a kid for non lawfull activities.. no wonder the detroit 'rock' city people like wv so much... sheesh...welcome to wv have a handgun...
and for the record im pro gun. but i know funny when i see it
phljess
New member
I usually try to stay out of threads like this one because everyone has their own opinions on topics like this-BUT
I really think this bill has more to do with regulation/licensing people who sell exotic animals so the government can get a piece of the action and hassle anyone who is wanting to purchase these items. If this board is created, the next step will be licensing shops to sell exotics which is a way to generate revenue for the state. Also the registration process will be absurd, just think about filling out forms in triplicate for each piece of coral or fish you buy at your LFS. I doubt the law will go this far but who knows, like Ron said, once you lose a right its much harder to get it back.
Also, if the board decides to regulate exotic fish and coral that would mean the collapse of all coral and fish sales by individuals in our club unless we start to meet outside of WV.
I really do not see this bill as a true protection against "monkey pox" or some other rare disease, I see it as a way to regulate sales of exotic animals and I am sure a stream of revenue for the state through licensing fees and registration fees.
One more thing on this topic, if exotic fish would be put on the regulated list by this board, say good bye to ordering them online also. Just look at Hawaii, Alaska and California. All of these states have laws that either completely do not allow non-native species into the state or highly regulate their entrance. Therefore, most major distributors do not even sell in Hawaii or Alaska.
I really think this bill has more to do with regulation/licensing people who sell exotic animals so the government can get a piece of the action and hassle anyone who is wanting to purchase these items. If this board is created, the next step will be licensing shops to sell exotics which is a way to generate revenue for the state. Also the registration process will be absurd, just think about filling out forms in triplicate for each piece of coral or fish you buy at your LFS. I doubt the law will go this far but who knows, like Ron said, once you lose a right its much harder to get it back.
Also, if the board decides to regulate exotic fish and coral that would mean the collapse of all coral and fish sales by individuals in our club unless we start to meet outside of WV.
I really do not see this bill as a true protection against "monkey pox" or some other rare disease, I see it as a way to regulate sales of exotic animals and I am sure a stream of revenue for the state through licensing fees and registration fees.
One more thing on this topic, if exotic fish would be put on the regulated list by this board, say good bye to ordering them online also. Just look at Hawaii, Alaska and California. All of these states have laws that either completely do not allow non-native species into the state or highly regulate their entrance. Therefore, most major distributors do not even sell in Hawaii or Alaska.
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firefish2020
New member
Not yelling just emphasizing the statement above all else nothing more.
phljess
New member
I'm sorry this will effect pet stores but it's already gotten to the farmers so it's just the way it has to be. You all know there are pet stores out there and people who import/sell animals that are endangered or should never be in captivity. It's the same as trying to get people to quit buying flower pot corals, etc, that only die in captivity. Or they keep the animals in terrible conditions. Some things just need regulated.
Lana [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you really think this law would stop someone from selling endangered species? I doubt it, the only thing it might do is drive the price up a little because it would be more difficult to buy them. -Besides, it is already unlawful to sell endangered species.
Lana [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you really think this law would stop someone from selling endangered species? I doubt it, the only thing it might do is drive the price up a little because it would be more difficult to buy them. -Besides, it is already unlawful to sell endangered species.
