auto top off

[douggiestyle]

this is the my auto top off

it was fairly inexpensive

and is simple and reliable



purchase two electric float switchs most any type will do as this system runs off 12vdc i like to use grainger there is a local pick up for me so i do not pay shipping. use two switches one for low water and one for as a high water safety. this requires mounting them in opposition.

also a solenoid valve. one can be purchased at atcvalve.com for about 17 bucks http://stcvalve.com/I-Solenoid-spec-2P.htm
it is 12vdc and is plastic and is safe to 150psi air or liquid.

also a 12vdc power supply these can be real cheap if you look hard check a lighting store or home depot ive seen them for as low as $6 but you need to make sure it has enough amps. you will need at least 3 amps. a low voltage lighting transformer should work or get one at radio shack.

wire a simple circuit through the two float switches then the solenoid valve to the power supply and back.

hook your ro/di or any pressurized water source directly to the soleniod. no need for pumps or resevoirs. and no 110vac jolts.

i have currenly created a manifold of four valves connected to my ro/di filter. one for my main tank and one for my qt and one for water changes, the last valve ive yet to determine its use. these are all connected to one power supply. i also use the power supply for 12vdc fans. anyways because of the possibility of all coming on at once ive added john guest speedfit check valves to eliminate any back siphoning. add these check valves directly after the solenoids.

if using a kalkreactor make sure the solenoid and check valve are before the reactor as it may not be able to withstand the pressure

good luck
use this forum for any questions

 

[BruiseAndy]

3 amp transformer seems pretty high for something that consumes 6.5 watts max at 12vdc. 6.5watts/12vdc=.54 amps so you could probably use a half amp tranformer that you may have lying around the house.

Are these all plastic including the plunger? If so I may have to pick up a couple.

 

[douggiestyle]

my bad.

3 WATTS.


i dont know about the plunger. but i would think that there would be little reaction between ro/di water and aluminum and none with stainless. and depending on the how the plastic was manufactured, there could actually be leaching of vocs and other chems from the plastic although im sure it would be of little effect either way

anyways it is an excellent, safe and inexpensive setup.

mine has been in operation with one valve for nearly two years, with a kalkreactor, with out a single problem.

unless we consider the "have only one float switch that got stuck in the on position" problem that i had. ooops

ive currently set up a low voltage electrical system for my tanks with the anticipation of adding more low voltage items. i used small project boxes and 1/8" phono plugs. plug and play.

 

[itZme]

This is interesting although I would still be concerned that a stuck solenoid would lead to a flooded basement and mostly freshwater tank before I noticed it. I think it would be neat to use this system to fill a holding tank. Then use a pump to pump the RO water into the sump from the holding tank. That way if the mechanical solenoid stuck it would overflow but not kill off anything inside the aquarium.

It would be pretty rare for the solenoid and the pump relay to both stick in the on positions and most people have an upper limit safety switch to cut the pump's power if the level gets too high. You could also plumb the holding tank to have a bulkhead almost at the top that flows to a drain where your room wouldn't be flooded if the solenoid stuck.

It may cost a bit more to do it this way but consider the cost of your corals, fish, rock if they were to be exposed to a tank full of RO water.

You could get by with just adding another solenoid inline with yours so they both open or close with the switches and that way if one were to stick open the other would close and stop the flow.

Just my 2 cents.

-- itZme

 

[douggiestyle]

that is a great idea a backup solenoid. would be very easy to install.

i doubt a regular power head would create enough pressure to work with the solenoid.

because the solenoid is connected to the ro/di filter the flow rate is fairly low (unless you have some high flow jobber) my ro/di is only 35gpd if the valve got stuck in the open position (my expeience with these valves greatly opposes getting stuck in the open position without power) it would take 8 hours too introduce apx 10 extra gallons of ro/di water into the tank. depending on the size of your tank this could have little or no effect. though you would have a mess. but using any auto fill could cause the same results. unless your resevoir (if using one) was very small.

my biggest problem with an overflow is that it could create a situation where a problem is not detected. if i come home to a puddle i know that something is wrong. and its happened to me.

my ro filter was not seated correctly in the housing so my flow rate was very high. i had no back up float switch. and i was out of the house about four hours. came home to about 30 or more gallons of water every where. its actually gets worse but i wont go on. but my tank is 80 gallons and i only sufford 4 casualties none of which where corals. but i dont think that its was due to the lowered sg (off the scale) but the 900 grams of kalk mix it dumped into the tank. then again i could be wrong. marine life is pretty hardy, or so ive discovered. anyways im off topic.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I must have missed this thread on the first go-around....

doug, though your setup works, there are some slight issues with it.

1.) The solenoid you listed more than likely has a copper shading coil, and other metal wetted parts. These may include the plunger, seat or guide. Inscrew the solenoid from the valve body and look inside.

2.) RO/DI is one of hte best solvents on the planet, it will eat most metals.

3.) The float switch setup alows short cycling of the RO/DI unit, resulting in a HUGE waste of water 10:1 or easily worse. Each time the units cycles to produce an ounce or two of water the ASOV must run to shut the unit off.

4.) Short cylcing your RO/DI unit will result in a very shortened filter and membrane life.

5.) There is really no fail safe here due to the "stuck solenoid" problem.

Not much you can do about the solendoid and it's metal parts. Hayward makes a $200 all plastic unit. However many people seem to be using similar solendoids with little problem. Just keep your water tests current.

You can place the solenoid on the input of the RO/DI and this will negate the metal problem, but may cause some other headaches and allow air to enter the filters (bacteria etc).

A better float switch setup would be to use the 2 floats in a "latching" setup with a relay. Bottom float would open solenoid, and the top would close it. This allows the sump to drop a pre-determined amount before filling. This save wear and tear on your equipment and reduces the waste water.

A third float swith acts as an overfill failsafe and is in series with the solenoid. It it floats, all power is cut to the solenoid.

LASTLY, the water input to the sump should go from the solenoid to a float valve (kent or any other suitable plastic float valve). This valve is set just above the max water level and will come into play if the solenoid stick open. This will physically stop the water coming from the RO/DI unit if the solendoid fails open or sticks.

Bean

 

[douggiestyle]

jeez thats too bad you missed this at first.

its a wonder my house isnt flooded or blown up. lets see 2 solenoids in each frig 1 for ice and 1 for water. 1 more in my dishwasher. 2 in my washing machine. 1 in my gas dryer, heater and water heater. thats 9 solenoids controlling water in my home. oh, i forgot the ones for my tanks. and three solenoids controlling natural gas!! i would think that if these things are unreliable every other house in the neighborhood would have flooded or exploded. anything could fail.

i suppose we should all disconnect our ro filters from our sinks and frigs. we are wearing out the filters with every batch of ice and each 8oz glass of water.

what is the definition of best solvent? do you mean that ro/di water is very acidic or caustic. or did you mean water is a universal solvent. that an extraordinary property of water is its ability to dissolve other substances. there is hardly a substance known which has not been identified in solution in the earth's waters. include the oceans.

yes you made some good points. but they are certainly minor issues.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My post contained suggestions for improving a DIY top-off. You referenced this thread (in another top-off thread) as a new way of doing things that is safe and reliable.

You may not agree with the suggestions, but by the looks of your tantrum, you do like to jump up and down and wave your arms wihtout anything useful to say.

The water comes in contact with the shading coil of the solenoid. The coil is either copper or nickel. RO/DI will act as a solvent with many metals, causing them to pit, spall or corrode. This topic has been discussed here many times. Some people choose to ignore the risks, others seem to feel there is no risk. I know what a universal solvent is thank you. I merely mentioned that there could be a risk. I use a similar solenoid on the output of my setup and have chosen to accept the risk.

YOU SAID:
my ro filter was not seated correctly in the housing so my flow rate was very high. i had no back up float switch. and i was out of the house about four hours. came home to about 30 or more gallons of water every where. its actually gets worse but i wont go on

Accidents happen, you had one yourself. The latching circuit AND the float valve would have prevented this disaster.

In my short life of 34 years, I have personally seen 2 refridgerator water solenoids stick open and 1 ice maker flood a kitchen due to a solenoid corroded with calcium. The dishwasher solenoid on my brothers dishwasher leaks, and the solenoid on our gas dryer has been replaced due to leaking. One of the two NO2 solenoids on our drag car leaked. Do you care to look up maintenance records for major appliance solenoid failures? You may want to research "single point failures" and failsafes (which by the way all of your gas appliances have).

Do you care to know that your setup is very prone to oscillation or solenoid chatter due to fluctuations in water level. This alone is a prime cause of solenoid or relay failure. Rapid or repetative solenoid cycling will cause premature failure.

As a side note, gas solenoids are much different than the direct acting solenoid valve you are using on your tank or in your fridge. You may also want to note that a few DIYers here at RC have had solenoids stick.

Your setup does waste a LOT of water and could be EASILY improved upon. I suggested a LATCH to improve the performance and cut down on the water bill as well as reduce wear and tear on the filters and membranes. Premature clogging is a symptom of the short cycleing. Instead of flapping your arms and yelling, why not look into the matter for yourself. I guess you felt more compelled to defend yourself against what you percieved as an attack.

I make about 5 gallons of water a day. That is at least 20 gallons of waste. Before I had my circuit done, I made 5 gallons of water a day and my waste was well over 110 gallons due to the short cycling and ASOV. Over a month the difference is aroud 3000 gallons. That's half our water bill. Your ice maker and chilled water dispenser don't use 5 gallons a day. It's likely less than 2 gallons a week. Even at that, the use of a lactch would greatly improve the efficiency and filter life. Don't take it from me though, do a bit of research. Call Walter at AWI, Spectrapure and any other reputable source.

Minor issues? It's a matter of perspective. The addition of a float valve costs a few bucks and offers a HUGE improvement in safety. The LATCH circuit improves performance and saves water.

Please get a grip, I surely did not attack you or your project and your response was more than childish.

 

[BeanAnimal]

BTW douggie... in the other thread (which I will not polute with this nonsense) you reference the fact that "your design is new" You also seem to be looking for disagreement or opinon (judging by several of the comment you posted with regards to "your new design".

Use the search function here at RC and you will find that this top-off design has been around for a LONG time, in that exact configuration. You will then find the same suggestions for improvements, and even a few folks who flipped out just like you did. You will find plenty of information on the possible metals problems and everything else I mentioned.

... must be something in the water.

 

[douggiestyle]

dearest beananimal.

i did not through a tantrum nor did i resort to making fun of you in fact i ageed with you. "yes you made some good points." but i still feel that they are minor issues "but they are certainly minor issues." yes i did use some sarcasm "jeez thats too bad you missed this at first." and for that i apologize. as far as your "short life of 34 years" im am certain that ive seen more. my families appliance business of 59 years and my managment of it over the last 20 years and for the rest of my life will attest to that. "anything could fail."

as far as "Use the search function here at RC and you will find that this top-off design has been around for a LONG time, in that exact configuration." i did aproximately 2 years ago here and at several other sites and i never did find a system like the one i setup not to say that they dont exist. but i do feel that it should be used more often because outside of topping off manually it is most likely the most secure setup ever devised no matter who thought it up.

your continuance on water useage, well quite honestly i really dont care. in this familly of five my toilet flushes about every 30 minutes, plus two showers and two baths (the boys bathe together) add in two loads of dishes (by the way running a fully loaded dishwasher is far more efficient than washing by hand) and 3 loads of laundry. all of us only drink water from the frig. all our cooking water and dont forget coffee also comes from the di unit that probably totals 4-5 times more than what my tank uses (just guessing). as you can see im not really concerned and i did not argue that point. but actually i like the idea and am going to put an extra meter ahead of the ro unit and find out what my total usage over a month is. i have lots of extra meters lying around, we are also retailers of everpure water systems

many smiles and no tantrums.

doug

 

[BeanAnimal]

I still fail to realize why you need to use sarcasm instead of conveying your points with a reasonable tone and logical reasoning or examples.

I missed the post the first time around, is there something wrong with that? I certainly did not attack you nor did I put you down. I try to help people here (as you seem to be doing). The reason for my post and observations was to help others here.

I learn every day, partly by observation and partly by the advice and knowledge of others. I have spent 15 years working in underground coal mines maintaining and using some rather complex equipment and processes in some of the most adverse conditions in the world. I also own an IT consulting business and maintain network infrastructures for a large number of businesses. I was formaly trained in computer programming and safety science. So in a nutshell, I have seen MANY things fail and understand why and how they fail. I can use some simple logic to determine the chance of something failing, while weighing the risk to person or property.

Your assesment of the risk and mine are different. My livestock and investment in this hobby cost to much to trust on a $25 solenoid. The water and filter cost issue is also of great importance to me, it is obviousley not important to you. The first solenoid I ordered leaked due to a bad seat. In todays world of poor quality control, I would rather trust a well designed failsafe than I would in imported part that is a knock off of some other imported part.

In the end I don't care what your top-off system consists of, I do however wish to help others learn as much about DIY as they can. That inlcudes alternate or improved methods of doing things, wasn't that your point in the first place? An improved top-off? You however seem to feel (somewhat rabidly) that the design needs no further improvement.

Have a nice evening.

 

[douggiestyle]

i used no sarcasm in explaining myself. but "dearest beananimal" was and is a brief bit of sarcasm. sarcasm is the most inteligent form of humor. the fact that im using it and that you are understanding it says alot (we must be a couple of genius...lol).

all i was saying is your point that a solenoid is going waste your filter and water is relatively moot if one is using their ro system for other things, which many of us do. i also never said that this type setup is fail safe. only that it is safe and reliable. and actualy was very welcome to the idea of main solenoid as a back up, itzme's suggestion. so much that i intend to set one in place.

you also reminded me of my stated problem. yes its true, i made some crucial errors. knowingly. you worked in a mine. i used to free climb. so you know as well as i, that as long as you follow the rules your'e ok, as soon as you get lazy itll bite you in the ***. the system did not fail, i failed the system.

i also have alot of experience with these valves, i took a brief hiatus from the family business. i got a job with the sony corporation. i worked as a chem tech in a clean room screening tvs. these valves were everywhere, dispensing di water in a critcal enviroment. purity was number one. also no trouble sticking open. it is not blind faith.

continue to help others, i will continue to learn. and please dont hesitate to post in any thread i may start. i welcome the correspondence.

douggiestyle

 

[BeanAnimal]

*grumble* Sony is on my worst customer service of the century list.

Those are the same reasons I do not have the RO unit hooked to the fridge and icemaker. I am already in the doghouse four doubling the electric and water bill. She doesnt even know (or at least fully grasp) about the salt, food, test kits and other recuring costs.

not that it matterrs:
I *still* work in mines as does my father... I, he, or we could in all probability end up at the Sago #1 mine to re-install the ventilation seals obliterated in the explosion, as well as possibly be called to help isolate the fire at the AT Massey Aracoma mine. (I have been underground in 2 mine fires, the first in Price Utah at the Wiilow creek fire and the second at the Loveridge fire in blacksville WV.) Ive been 2200' down and 5 miles out under the ocean in Nova Scotia, dropped down a 1400' 10' diameter shaft in a bucket, and a lot of other silly things over the years. Free climbing, I would not do... I would likely fall and kill myself.

 

[douggiestyle]

ive had the meter on for ten days now and have registered around 100 gallons. the thing has an accuracy of 100 gallons so it may be zero but im sure we would both aggree that it isnt zero. it could also be 200. by the way, i have a seperate filtration system for the frig etc.. it is everpure. i have the kent hi-s for my fish tank. even at cost the everpure was more than the kent. i plan on removing the ro from the frig etc. and only run the carbon filter. more minerals for the wife and kids.

also i have given some thought on the float valve on the ro/di water line and as i have one not being used. intend on using it. an excellent example of just in case. wont hook up the extra solenoid no need with the float valve. how many backups does one need?(rhetorical). the next thing ill be ocd, turning the car back on just to make sure it was off.


im sure RCA's customer service is worse.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sadly RCA and Sylvania were put out of business by Sony. Long story short Sony dumped TVs on the US market at a 3:1 loss for YEARS with the sole intent of putting the only two US picture tube makers out of business. Then again I am sure you are fully aware or at least heard of this being a Sony guy! In any case it worked. RCA and Sylvania had to slash quality to try and compete (even that isn't enough to keep up with dumping on the scale that Sony did). I have a friend that worked in the Sony plant near Greensburgh PA.... is that where you worked? That used to be the Volkswagon plant when I was a kid. Used to see trainloads VWs out there.

The float switch gives me a piece of mind. I have not been too thrilled with the solenoids I have tried for my setup. I may even order the one you linked to. I still do not like the idea of the metal in contact with the RO/DI water, but just don't see a cheap alternative. I have contacted Hayward several times about a their all plastic units, but they are another worthless compnay to deal with.

Do you use a pressure tank on each system?

 

[douggiestyle]

pressure tank on the everpure none for the kent.

the biggest cause for those ice maker solenoids to fail in an open position (actually they usually slow leak) is mineral deposits on the seat. wont get this with ro/di. dont have any % but failure to open is hugely more common, % wise. the coil burns out. even the gas solenoids for dryers etc.. replacement coils instead of valve assembly.

like you said water is the "universal solvent" in that it will disolve anything. but at what rate. now there is no way i would use one of those solenoids with salt mix. a no no.