Azno3

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11322401#post11322401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
I'm not aware of any side effects. This was my first time to use this product.

before I went and did the whole denitrifier thing, I figured after AZ-NO3 worked for me so good initially, I'd give it a shot to maintain those low nitrates. I dose about 10 to 15 ml per day. I've gone as low as 5ml to 20ml max. I always dose gradually up or down, however, from day to day if I need to adjust. Sulfur just doesn't sound like it's a pleasant odor. What do ya think?
 
I wanted to update what is going on with my nitrate level in the tank since I stopped dosing around 11/20/07. Over time, the nitrates rose again to about 35ppm I'd guess. Which was higher than I wanted, but roughly 50% better than it was prior to dosing.

Roughly 30 days ago, I built a DIY denitrifier that hasn't done anything yet. It might still be settling in, I might have done something wrong, I'm just not sure yet. The water going into the gizmo has the same amount of nitrate as the water coming out of it, so I'd have to say it isn't helping my system yet.

I added one 20 lb bag of sand (Aragonite from the LFS) to my refugium. Three new refugium bulbs were installed and macro grow has resumed like it used to.

As of yesterday, nitrates seem to be around 15ppm. Here's a picture taken outdoors with overcast weather, no flash, resized only. To my eye, it seems like it is around 15 or so, definitely not matching 25ppm. The picture may be a bit misleading.

nitrates.jpg


I'm very happy that my tank did not rebound back to 60ppm a couple of months later.
 
Can you list the ingredients please?

From what I can read it's just un-refined sugar.

Cozymase = NAD = enzymes involved in the respiratory chain. Unless they are in micelles (artificial cell membranes) I cannot imagine they do anything.
 
To find those out, either look at my pictures posted or contact the mfg. I'm just a hobbyist that used it, and it worked.
 
Well I was unable to read the bottle clearly in that picture....I suppose it's not important, I was just curious.

I do not doubt that it works. Sugar works too. I was just saying that I think it's probably as good as sugar water - but hey, maybe something about it makes it better, I don't know.
 
Hey Melev, not sure what kind of denitrifier you built (I assume the Sulfur media type) but if so...
it takes 30 - 60 days for the sulfur type to start building bacteria if it's not pre-seeded.

if it is pre-seeded then it will take 15 to 30 days. While your denitrifier is cycling (building bacteria), you have to maintain a drip as slooooooooooooooow as possible and wait until you get ZERO nitrates coming out of the reactor. Only then you should increase the output flow to a slightly higher level for a few days and then measure again.
The output of the denitrifiershould ALWAYS read zero nitrates, otherwise the output flow is too much.

Whe you get to the rotten egg smell you'd have to clean / rinse the sulfur media and replace the arm media...
HTH
 
I think there may be merit in running those sulfur reactors using an ORP controller. I ran a sulfur reactor for a full YEAR before giving up on it. I was never able to sustain a zero nitrate effluent at anything more than a drop per every two or three seconds, which basically on a >100gallon felt like trying to empty a lake using an eyedropper .... while it's raining. I did go through a small nitrate bump after taking it offline so I guess it did have an effect while it was running but I never acheived NO3 a steady reading of <25ppm.

I found that increasing the effluent flowrate to beyond the couple-seconds-per-drop flowrate would cause the reactor to go aerobic (ie., within days the nitrate level of the effluent would jump up to that of the input). I came to the conclusion that were I to try it again I would try an ORP controller to ensure that the chamber wasn't getting too much air.

Not to discourage you. A lot of people swear by these things but I was not one. People kept telling me to stick with it, the whole 60 day thing to seed itself, etc. etc. I gave it a WHOLE YEAR and got fed up with the lack of results.

Anyhow, I'm sure the downfall of mine was the flowrate. I would go ORP controller and peristaltic pump to feed it again.

But ..... I won't be trying it again. I went to PolypLaps Reef-resh instead and within a week I was noticing a downward trend in NO3 and within a month was reading zero. That was November and I'm still reading zero. I'm not looking back. And next tank will be Zeovit because it tackles PO4 as well as NO3 (I'm pretty sure PolypLabs just tackles NO3). I can't believe I didn't try this stuff earlier.
 
just an update...Ive been dosing daily about 5ml to keep them around 10ppm in my 120 gallon at home and my tank has really never looked healthier.
 
For those interested, I've had some discussions with the AZ-NO3 folks, and while it does appear to work well, I've not seen anything that makes me think it is substantially different than driving bacterial growth with other carbon sources, such as sugar, vodka, vinegar/acetate, or special zeo and other name brand but unidentified food sources.

Here's a thread where they try to explain the product to me :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=779188
 
Melev Have you tried the sandbed in a bucket?

For what its worth heres how im running my system with great success.

This is a poor mans version of zeovit.

I use this http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html



In this
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~filters_kent_marine_phos_reactor.html

This stuff harbors an enormous amount of bacteria. It provides them with a large surface area, like sand does. But unlike sand, it doesn't trap a lot of detritus. And I clean it once a month.

I dose vodka/sugar/vingar blended in equal parts every three days. @ roughly 10ml per dose. I say roughly because I add more or less as needed based on the tank conditions. If im seeing more algae on the glass i up the dose.
This feeds the denitrifying bacteria in the matrix.

I also add this once a week.
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Stability.html

This adds good bacteria to the tank. The idea is to stock these good bacteria to compete with possible bad bacteria. Not sure its needed but its cheap enough.

This system has removed all traces of algae from my tank. Its manageable and sustainable.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11712735#post11712735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Hi Alex, this one is mine. It has been running exactly 30 days, and was not seeded.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11475210#post11475210
I read the thread. It has some merit but here are my observations.
The ultimate goal of the denitrifier would be to create anaerobic bacteria inside the sulfur chamber as soon and as efficient as possible so you can process nitrates. The commercial units are designed such that this process is very efficient and is complete within 30-60 days for unseeded media, and 15-30 days for seeded media.
I'm not sure how long it'll take for the DYI design to "create" the necessary bacteria that will counter the amount of nitrates your system generates.
If you had a "standard" (re-circulating) sulfur de-nitriifer, I'd be able to help more. Knowing your craftiness with acrylic, I'm surprised you haven't built one for yourself. I can give you all the dimensions of mine if you want. All you need is an eheim 1048 and you're in business. It's an extremely simple design.
 
The reason I've not built one myself is because I refuse to build anything round. You know the day I do everyone will be clamoring for me to make skimmers, reactors, and more. Gotta keep those wolves at bay, you know? :D

If it doesn't end up working, I may look at a different system.

Zedar, I have no room for a bucket full of sand, but I started to add more sand to my refugium. I have room to add quite a bit more. However, with my nitrates under 20ppm, I'm not really worried like I was back in October when they were much higher.

I updated this thread because I'm sure people wanted to know how the tank would do a couple of months later after it was off the product.
 
Seems more or less consistent with what you should expect though. Nitrate production is more or less constant, thus reducing nitrates in a "treatment" type methodology could only have a temporary effect anyhow. It's a typical producer/consumer scenario. If the production isn't reduced, or if the consumption isn't increased - in a more "long term" or "permanent" basis - then nitrates cannot help but creep back up sooner or later.

The sulfur reactor is only one such method, but there are others. FWIW, I also did the "deep sand bed in a bucket" idea and that didn't work for me either (in fact I swear it made my nitrate buildup worse. Weird.). Anyhow I hope you find a method that works for you though. :)
 
Tony, don't take my comments the wrong way. This thread was started to talk about AZNO3, and I've been trying to keep it on that topic the entire time.

I've added other things I've done only to fill in the full picture so that all the information is on the table, so to speak.

Regarding the nitrate numbers before and after treatment, I've seen an improvement. It dropped them down as promised without livestock losses, and those numbers didn't simply rise back up to 60ppm again as some might predict. The entire time, I didn't change my feeding & water change habits. I wanted to see if the product could do what it promised, and I believe it has.

My hope was that once the numbers were down low enough, the natural filtration of the tank could keep them low, and that the only reason they were so high is because it exceeded the tank's ability to extract them due to the over abundance of NO3. And it seems like it is working that direction. Several months ago, NO3 was 60ppm (using two kits correctly), and as of a couple of days ago, 15ppm.

And that is always a good thing. :)
 
Hey delphinus, out of curiosity, which dinitrifier did you set up that didn't work out for you?
And was it a sulfur based?
BTW, I definitely agree with you. Nitrate reduction is not a treatment. It has to be an equilibrium between nitrate generation by the system, and nitrate reduction either by a refugium or a reactor.
 
No worries Marc. I didn't intend my comments to sound hostile but when talking about the broader topic of nitrates it is helpful to know people's experiences with methodologies.

As far as the specific product AZNO3 - the thing is, while it "works as advertised" the real concern I have with it is that it is a band-aid. You buy one bottle or whatever, and you use it until your nitrates are gone, and then you stop. That's all well and good, but to me it's the equivalent of a diet to lose weight. The diet may work but if you don't change your lifestyle, the changes likely won't stick. There's an old saying - come to think of it, I think it's from your neck of the woods (Texas) - "If all you ever do is all you've ever done, then all you'll ever get is all you've ever got." Your tank had had a lot of time to accumulate up to 60ppm. Likely, the nitrates bound to your subtrate would leach out after water changes making it seem like the accumulation was at a certain rate - but the reality is it was more likely a more slow accumulation over a long time that got you there. Thus, even reducing the nitrates to zero - you likely won't stay there forever if nothing else changes.

Believe me I know the frustration of inexplicably high nitrates. I was up to 80ppm a year ago - I was desperate for a solution. I banked on sulfur to be my way out of that nightmare - but it wasn't. I agree, this topic isn't about sulfur but honestly the change that going to a ULNS system was so profound to me that I would be remiss not to share my experience when I see others suffering from high nitrates. A year ago had you asked me what I thought about Zeo I might have scoffed and said "bah, it's cheating." But really, similar to how RO/DI levels the playing field amongst geographically dispersed players, aiding and abetting the bacterial cultures that reduce nitrate and phosphate levels the playing field among players with different live rock (let's face it, not all live rock is created equal - why else might someone with say 2 lbs/gallon suffer nitrates and someone with 1/2 - 3/4 lbs/gallon not suffer nitrates - assuming all other variables are reasonably equivalent?). So now I'm like .. is it really cheating - who cares! If it gets your the results you're looking for. :)

Anyhow, I'm not trying to stir the pot, sorry if it looked like I was. I am just compelled to share my experiences. I came close to quitting the tank because I could not solve the nitrates. Dude, 80ppm sucks. So I know what 60ppm must feel like. I lost corals to the nitrates before recognizing the tank was having a problem. Again, it was more a slow accumulation that crept up on me and by the time I realized what was going on it was out of control. I'm back to being pretty anal about measuring my nitrates - I hope not to repeat that mistake.

Skydancer - I didn't use a commercial denitrifier, I converted a dual stage calcium reactor to a sulfur reactor. It held one full container of Caribsea LSM (sulfur granules), the second stage I just used ARM.
 
delphinus,

Would you consider a refugium with algae, cheating? By exporting the algae you're exporting nutrients.
By adding a carbon source you're feeding bacteria that are already there, but limited, due to a deficiency of carbon. Then you're exporting them.
In my mind its the same thing. Only bacteria reproduce faster and are much more efficient at consuming nutrients.
 
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