Bacterial infections

[zemuron114]

How can you treat Bacterial infections? I heard it is strictly a water quality issue. I have been running constant furazone green and cupramine (1/4 dose) But also change about 700 gallons a week on a 1400 system.

Any good readings on this?

Thanks

 

[TerryB]

You have been running constant furazone and copper on a 1400 gal tank?

It depends on the particular type of bacteria. Most bacterial infections are due to injury or parasites and are not really contagious unless the water quality is bad. Is the water cloudy? I assume that you are using skimmers. There are contagious bacterial infections, but that is not usual. In a system that big I would expect you to have access to foods containing an antibiotic because you are treating all the fish. Yes, a large water change using well aged and aerated saltwater can assist fish in overcoming a bacterial infection - sometimes. How do you know that the fish have a bacterial infection? I can't suggest much unless you provide a lot more information. Why are you treating with copper?

Terry B

 

[zemuron114]

It is a holding system for wholesaling... Fish move in and out quickly, and copper helps stop the spread of anything that may pop up. Furazone is used to heal external wounds (from collection or something else)

Water is never really cloudy. I do a 200 gallon water change every other day and once a week i do a 700 gallon water change. So im really turning over my entire system probably once a week or week and half. I feed with prazipro and garlic (mainly mysis)

I think it is a bacterial infection because butterflies will get these sores on their sides randomly. No ich or any other external desease is present that i can tell. I inspect all the fish almost daily.

Thanks for the help

 

[TerryB]

Are the sores on the butterflies along the lateral line and around the face? What copper are you using? Not usually a good idea to use copper on fish with a bacterial infection. Copper suppresses the immune system. Do the sores on the butterflies have raised scales and hemorrehaging? You should probably have a microscope and learn how to make a positive ID, at least for parasites.

Terry B

 

[zemuron114]

none have been around the face. Im using cupramine. Only about 1/5 dose for my system. They do have raised scales actually (only on some of them though) I dont think it is a usual parasite, as it is mainly effecting butterflies. I stopped using copper, and will continue to run furazone green. Thanks again for the help. any other suggestions?

 

[TerryB]

I don't see how using copper at 1/5th dose will accomplish anything positive. That is not high enough to cure ich. I am beginning to suspect uronema. It does seem to infect butterfies often. I might switch to nitrofurazone as it is a good antibiotic and it does have some antiparasitic action. Some suggest nitrofurazone for uronema. It is tough to treat once an infection is advanced. Formalin dips or FW dips can help early, but not really a good idea to use either on fish with open wounds. So you are seeing some red under the raised scales? Uronema is more opportunistic than ich. It is not an obligate parasite so it does feed on other things. It is not usually a problem unless water quality is poor, the fish are badly stressed, diet is debilitating, or the fish are otherwise sick. The copper may have something to do with it. You can't cure uronema with copper.

I just happen to be working on a new article about some of the less common external parasites, including uronema. Here are a couple of snippets from it.

"Uronema marinum is a free-living rather than obligate parasite as it feeds on live food, dead tissue and bacteria. However, this parasite is opportunistic and, it is often found on recently captured, transported, or otherwise weakened hosts. Poor conditions and stress are believed to be factors as they negatively impact the host’s immune system. Uronema marinum infects fish within a wide temperature and salinity range and invades internal organs in advanced stages."

"Early on, increased mucus production and hyperactivity may be seen as symptoms of Uronema marinum infection. Focal de-pigmentation, ulceration and pitting of the skin, respiratory distress, lethargy, clamped fins, gasping at the surface or laying at the bottom of the aquarium are symptoms. Raised scales with bloody patches (hemorrhages) and erratic swimming can also be exhibited. "

Terry B

 

[zemuron114]

Terry B.. wow, i would have never thought of Uronema (only heard of it a few times as it is!)

It is red under the scales.

i dont see how water quality is bad since i do huge water changes all the time (3-5 times a week)... Maybe my test kits are bad since ntrate always reads <20.

Where can I buy nitrofurazone? Will furazone green work at a high dose?

Thanks again

 

[TerryB]

Furazone green contains both nitrofurazone and methylene blue so it is possible that it will work at the right dose. You have to use a stronger dose in saltwater than in freshwater and the methylene blue could wipe out the biofilter. You should be able to find nitrofurazone online. It does have other names under various brands. Do an Internet search. What dose are you using? Have you considered using antibiotics in the food? They are available for fisheries. The problem is that the healthiest fish tend to get the most food (and a higher dose than the sick fish).

Terry B

 

[zemuron114]

I run 1/3 dose furazone green. I can up to full dose. I feed with garlic and prazi pro. What do you recommend for antibiotics?

Thanks again, i appreciate it

 

[TerryB]

Running antibiotics at 1/3 dose couldn't be effective for much of anything but deteriorating water quality, immune function and possibly leading to a resistant strain of bacteria. If you use a full dose (a full dose for saltwater is not the same dose for use in freshwater) then the methylene blue in the Furazone green will probably destroy the biological filter. You don't want to have problems with ammonia. Is the biological filtration in the system fully functional?

Considering the size of the system, furanase might be a good choice. However, I cannot recommend treating the fish in such a large system. Any fish that are exhibiting the symptoms that you describe should be treated in a separate system or hospital (Qtank) system. You are already using a good combination with the furazone green, but you need to use it correctly or it is worthless.

I have used nitrofurazone on fish with the symptoms that you describe with good success. I have not used methylene blue for it. These are both in furazone green. I cannot recommend any other antibiotics or antiseptics for uronema. I haven't tried quinicrine for uronema, but I have used it for ich and external worms.

If you insist on treating the entire system (1400 gallons) then look into furanase (probably not for uronema). It is inexpensive and effective for many bacterial infections. Maracyn-Two (minocycline) and the other antibiotics I would suggest would cost a lot of money. My four favorites are probably (not in any particular order) Maracyn-Two, nitrofurazone, furanase and neomycin. Kanamycin can be useful. Erythromycin is useful for that rare gram-positive bacterial infection. It is not helpful that often since most bacterial infections in saltwater are gram-negative in nature. Praziquantel is safe for fish, but not an antibiotic. Prazi is probably most useful for monogenetic tremetodes. Garlic has some mild antibiotic action and it can kill worms in the digestive track (not usually a big problem and fish usually do have some internal parasites).

Terry B

 

[zemuron114]

I have furazone green light. Says it wont kill any active bio filters (i have 2 towers about 3 feet tall each packed with PVC shreds -or biobail)

Ill look into nitrofurazone.

thanks again