Bad livestock success rate so far--- need your help!!

ClownsRCoo

New member
I need your help to figure out if i am doing something wrong when acclimating my fish or not. So far my success rate is not very good and its frustrating not knowing whether its because of something im doing or if it was just the fish and was going to happen regardless. Please read my methods so far and tell me what you think.

Bare with me i am still learing as a go but get a lot of conflicting information from posts on here and books i have.

My first fish choice was a purple firefish. I had read through all 3 of my books and even the liveaquaria website that said to drip acclimate your fish for a minimum of 3 hrs. With this fish i wasnt prepared at all and found that out the moment i got home. I had just finished my cycle a few days prior and needed to do a major water change before i added any fish. I figured that while i float the fish i could take care of that. So i drained off about 15 gallons of my 29 gallon biocube QT. It was a very cold day and my water change station is in my garage and i didnt even take that into effect so the water was freezing cold. When i realized that i knew i was screwed. I filled the tank up and it dropped the tank by 10 degrees. I had already removed the fish bag from the tank, opened it and poured him into a bucket. I knew i couldnt drip that water like it was into the bucked or he'd die from the temp difference so i very very slowly dripped water in there while i brought ever heater i had and put it in that tank to warm the water quicker. I placed both heaters by the airline tubing in the tank in hopes taht it would suck up the water water close to the heaters and not shock the fish too much. So after i finally dripped him for about 2 hrs i put him in the tank. The entire time he was in there he looked like he was just struggling to stay upright. He would lag against the glass right by the return nozzles where there wasnt much flow. After about 3 days he was dead. i knew it was because i wasnt prepared which was why that fish died.

I got back on here and really tried to research acclimation techniques and read that a lot of people keep their tanks at a low salinity and then test the water that hte fish comes in, and raise theirs to that salinity while the fish is floating for 15 minutes. After the temps are the same they scoop the fish out and put them in and have great success doign that.

My next attempt was a few weeks later when i bought a pair of clowns. I followed that method listed above. I used a pin to ***** the bag below the water level and collected some water to test teh salinity. Then tapped the bag back up. From what i read this helps not to allow any oxygen into the bag and wont allow the conversion of ammonia in the bag water yet. The store keeps their salinity at 1.020 so i raised my water to that within the 15 float time i had set for the fish. I opened the bag and netted them and put them in after that. Both seemed very active and it was a night and day difference from the first time. They are both currently in my DT and doing very well.

Last weekend I was feeling more confident about my new acclimation technique and decided to fill the QT with fish again. I tested the water and found my phosphates were getting high. I also needed to change out the carbon in the filter basket as well. Its the 3 chamber basket that comes with the tank and i have the sponge material in the first chamber, bio-glass in the second, carbon in the 3rd. I changed our the carbon with fresh carbon and did about a 50% water change. I have a heater in my water change station now so the water stays at a good temp all the time. I changed out half of the bio glass as well just because i honestly dont know how often, if at all it needs to be done for that. I only have about 15lbs of LR so i figured using that to help grow more nitrifying bacteria was a good idea. I did my same method and thought it went just as well. The fish looked afraid the first day but were eating by the next night. They were definately more active. I tested the water again on the 3rd morning and saw that my ammonia went from 0 to .25 so i thought i better do another water change to remove that as much as possible. I did about 10 gallons and filled with new water that matched the salinity. That night i was doing my first part to raise the salinity to match my DT. I was planning on raising it .01 every other day. So i put in enough salt to go from 1.020 to 1.021. My method for tht is to put my salt into a large cup with a lid and add tank water, shake it up to disolve the salt and pour that salty mixture back in the tank. It takes a few fill ups to completly dissolve it all but it works fine and is easy. So i do that and they seem ok. This morning 1 of them looks just like the firefish did when he was taking a turn for the worst. He is barely moving and staying by the nozzles. I saw that he looked like he even got sucked up against the overflow portion of the tank and was just stuck there so i lightly poked him and he kinda swam off from it. It looked like he just was going to stay stuck their until he died if i didnt poke hiim. I had to leave for work after that so im worried hes dead by the time i get home.

Please can someone tell me if i am doing something wrong. 2 dead fish out of 5 doesnt seem like a very good start to my hobby.
 
For fish that you receive in the mail (any fish that spends an extended period of time in the bag) your second method (quick 15 minute acclimation with salinity and pH matching the bag the fish is in) is correct. The only thing I would change is to raise your salinity simply top off the evaporated QT water with regular 1.025 saltwater rather than add a heavily concentrated salt mix. It will take a little longer that way but be less stressful. Because I have the luxury of purchasing fish at several close local fish stores I can use longer 60 minute acclimation periods and not worry about ammonia since the fish are only in a bag for perhaps 20-30 minutes. Firefish are delicate and very timid fish so they need a good hiding place to prevent them from getting stressed.
 
Yes I have close fish stores too which is where I am buying them from. I just got home and the fish looks a lot better than this morning. He is swimming around more and he even was very active when I threw a little food in for them to see how they would react. I'm taking that as a good sign. The firefish would never even eat. I think that was a combo of too quick on the salinity adjustment which damaged his swim bladder, temp change and stress. I think maybe my salinity raise yesterday after I did a water change to remove some of the ammonia stunned this guy. I'm going to keep the tank very stable for the next week or so just to make him comfortable and make sure he gets better
 
You may also find that you have better success with fish from a different store. We have a local fish store with a terrible reputation for fish health and on the other extreme a store that QT's all their fish for two weeks before they put them on display.
 
A couple of comments, but realize that this is speculation over a computer, and it's very difficult to diagnose a problem without being present.

The first comment is about the fishes' behavior - swimming in the current from a powerhead or return line indicates the fish isn't getting enough oxygen. There are a lot of reasons why this may be the case, but two standouts are disease and ammonia poisoning. If a fish is exposed to ammonia, it interferes with their respiration. Whether this damage is fatal or not depends on the delicacy of the fish, the length of time of exposure, and the concentration of the ammonia.

Two common parasites, ich (cryptocaryon irritans) and velvet (amyloodinium) also affect a fishes' gills, and the typical behavior is swimming in the current. One can usually see an ich infestation on the fishes' skin, but not always.

The second comment has to do with your QT. It was unclear from your post whether the live rock that you have was actually in the quarantine tank or not. My personal opinion is that any quarantine tank should have some amount of biological filtration in it, whether from a few pounds of live rock or a seeded sponge filter from the main display tank. Otherwise, it's very difficult to control ammonia levels.

There are many, however, that prefer a bare tank for a QT, and just deal with the ammonia with frequent large water changes. But one needs to have a bit of experience to deal with large water changes successfully - the water must have very similar chemistry, salinity and temperature to the tank's water to avoid shocking the fish.

Finally, the comment about choosing your LFS (local fish shop) carefully is well worth considering. There are many shops that just don't know what they're doing from an animal husbandry standpoint, and many that sell fish so quickly that they're only in the shop's tank for a day before they're sold. In that last case, the fish just doesn't have a chance to settle down before being stressed from yet another transfer.
 
FWIW, I think you are overdoing it. I would also go about a week between additions when adding new livestock. I'd be cautious in a new tank with adding two fish at a time. Bring the bag up to temperature and then slowly add in your tank's water for a period of time and then let the fish go. Too much intervention trying to get it perfect may actually be working against you.

I came back to this post because I really hope it didn't come off mean. Just some thoughts...
 
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I didn't think you came off mean at all. I appreciate everyone's feedback because that's what I'm looking for. I'm not too prideful to take advice from someone.

First off to answer some of dkellers thoughts: yes I do have the live in the QT tank and had it in there throughout the entire cycle. To be clear the fish is not swimming in the current, he is hanging out behind the return jet because I believe that is the calmest place in the tank actually.

To me it looks like he was struggling to stay upright . This was especially the case with the firefish which led me to believe it was swim bladder related. The biocube has the plastic teeth that are there to keep the animals and snails from entering the overflow portion of the tank. I could never get the firefish to eat the entire 4 days I had him. It seemed as though he was having the problems I mentioned and was so shy he slowly starved to death. I found him once sucked up against those grates a few hrs he fore he died. It seemed as though he was so weakened that he was blown towards it and sucked up against it and didn't have the strength to swim away.

When I checked these two out this morning and saw the same thing happened to one of these I thought that was it and he'd be dead before I even got home from work. I stuck my finger in there and gave him a pole and he swam off of it on his own.

When I got home from work a few hours ago I checked and to my surprise he's still alive. He was even swimming pretty normally around with the other fish. I opened the lid and threw a few pellets in to see if he'd eat and he was was pretty fiesty looking when he went for the food. That to me was a good sign.

The reason I have been buying two fish these past two times is I thought with certain fish like clowns it's going to give me a better chance of it working out with multiples in the same tank if I introduced them in pairs. My first pair I think might be a mated pair of occelaris. These are a pair of picasso's.

That's my reasoning for that not that I'm trying to hurry it along.
 
My 2 cents, don't do 50%water changes. If salt or temp is off a little the fish will notice. At the end of a cycle there is really no need for any WC. You get bonus points for being thorough, I'd just slow down a little.
 
ClownsRCoo, I feel for you. I am also new to this, and have lost 4 fish in the last two days. I never realized that I couldn't put multiple fish in the tank at the same time. You would think that the guy at the pet store would have told me that when I told him I was new to this and wanted to add fish for the first time.
My tank finished its cycle on Friday so this past Saturday I went and bought 3 Green Chromis, 1 Diadema Dottyback, and 1 Ocellaris Clownfish along with my cleanup crew. So far I have removed all of the Green Chromis and the Diadema Dottyback is no where to be found (and I have looked all over). The only remaining fish is the Clownfish. I will keep my fingers crossed that I can keep that one alive.
 
Sometimes even when a new tank is technically "cycled", it doesn't mean it's ready for a bunch of life all at once. The bacteria and other life in the system need time to catch up for adequate filtration of the new bioload. It sounds like you are going nice and slow from here on out, and we all have losses. You just don't hear about them as much from the vets. I agree with the comments about overdoing acclimation sometimes. I buy from my local lfs's only and they have similar params but i first temp match the bag and then start adding water every five or ten minutes and rarely go over half an hour with the process before the fish is introduced, lights off or dimmed, and no losses yet. It all depends on the fish though and the quality of the water. If your lfs had low ph or dirty water the fish could be stressed coming into a tank with good water and high ph. Also, some species are more delicate than others. Acclimation seems to be different for everyone and whatever works for you! You'll get this!
 
Couple things....

1. from the top, 15 gallons out of 29 does not leave you with 14 gallons. displacement probably puts you closer to a remaining 10 on the HIGH range....i would not suggest doing large water changes like this... the suggested 10% weekly or 20% monthly based on parameter levels is a much more stable way to replenish the elements depleted from your water. water changes should replenish depletion not remove unwanted nutrients...balancing the system with LR, LS, good filtration, and careful husbandry will help you in the long run and help decrease the amount of time consumed keeping parameters satisfactory.

2. those teeth on the overflow...its called a weir, and they are there to create more surface area for the water to pass through , creating more efficient skimming and oxygen introduction, not to keep the fish and snails out...believe me, they will get behind there pretty much no matter what.

3. you can introduce 2 fish at once. you should follow the suggestion of an inch of fish per 3 gallons of water to be safe. others do an inch per gallon, and others suggest an inch per 5 gallons. in any case, with a tank that volume, nutrients build up incredibly fast...so proper husbandry and stocking is of critical importance.

4. the guy at the fish store....well, his job is to sell fish. To some extent, if he can sell a fish that will stay alive for a short time, you will be back sooner to spend more money....good business. On the other side of the coin, if he sells you something that lasts a long time, you will be happy and reccomend that store to others and be back to buy other corals, inverts, food, etc. win win for the store. you should do your own research before buying anything...ask questions to confirm what you may or may not believe, but be patient. If there are livestock you MUST have, take five minutes, step out of the store and look it up on your smartphone or call a fellow reefer. Have the patience to see how the livestock is doing in the sales tank for more than 30 minutes (i.e. a few days \ weeks even). Any good store will allow a deposit and hold the item for a small length of time.

5. Add new livestock slowly....a month apart, especially in that volume tank...give the tank time to adjust and remain stable so you know you are offering a great environment for the new stock....not just an ok or good most of the time environment.

6. Most important....go buy some books...read them twice. Borne, Fenner, Sprung, Calfo....google search them. I believe the books, Aquarium Corals, Corals, and The Conscientious Marine Aquarist are somewhat necessity when you are starting out. Amason....very affordable and you will refer to them consistantly for years, I almost guarantee it. Research Research Research.


7. Have Fun. Keeping fish and coral is fun, replacing them is not.
 
I feel for you, when I started this out (with 15+ years freshwater) I thought there wouldn't be that much of a learning curve. Ya, I was wrong, resulting in a few causalities and some learning.

One thing no one mentioned (that I saw) when adding fish if you decide that maintenance needs to be done (I'm referring to you changing media) "needed to change out the carbon in the filter basket" Your going to have a good percentage of nasty stuff leave your filter baskets and enter your tank. So not a good time to do that.

Previous comments about LFS having bad reps (there's a couple near me) Exploring stores is great. (amazing how I hate clothes shopping but love fish shopping) I have a couple stores I feel safer purchasing from and owners/employees I feel better about getting advice from.

I was thinking Oxygen problems but after clarification that the fish is behind the filter maybe to much flow/oxygenation (flow) so maybe that's an issue?

Also if you have recently gone through a cycle the tank has bacteria to handle what's in the tank. By adding fish (More fish more load) you are adding things that are going to expel wastes such as ammonia and your tank needs some time to build up the bacteria to handle this additional bio-load (slow and sure) That's also an issue with smaller tanks.

P.S. I have found that MicroCosm books rock. They seem to give awesome advice and also look great on a coffee table. Just my opinion, but I think "The New Marine Aquarium" was best book I ever got, followed by "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist"
 
A couple of additional thoughts based on your extra information.

If your rock was truly "live" and fully cycled, there really shouldn't have been any ammonia in the tank. It's entirely possible that you got a false reading from your ammonia kit, leading you to do a large water change. As others noted, doing large water changes can be perilous. In particular, it's important that the water be "aged" - it should be fully mixed/dissolved, circulating and at temperature for at least 24 hours before its used to do a large water change. Many reefers use water that's made up and immediately used, but that's generally for a 10% or less water change. That "sharp" smell that you may have noticed when salt is first dissolved isn't something you want your fish exposed to during a large water change - my opinion is that this smell is from sulfites, but there's some disagreement on that point.

With respect to water, what are you using to make up new saltwater and for evaporation make-up? If you're using tap water with a conditioner, that might cause you some difficulties, especially with a newly-established biofilter. The chemicals in tap water conditioner break apart the chloramine added to municipal water and complex the ammonia, but they don't make it go away - the bacteria in the tank eventually consume the complexed ammonia and convert it to nitrite and then to nitrate.

If you're using the LFS's purified water, be aware that some LFSs don't maintain these systems the way they should, leading to issues with residual ammonia and/or dissolved heavy metals.

With regard to your quarantine tank, I'd suggest: keeping the lights low, masking off the sides of the tank with dark paper so that only the front is visible, locating the tank in an area in your home that is low-traffic, and providing some hiding places for the new fish with some sections of PVC.

As for food, realize that a lot of the fish we buy are wild-caught, and pellet and flake food doesn't resemble what the fish are used to eating. For that reason, I'd strongly suggest buying some frozen mysis and brine shrimp, some cyclops (either the PE cyclop-eeze or the San Francisco Bay Brand cyclops), and if available, the Reef Nutrition R.O.E. Frozen and/or refrigerated foods are generally far more palatable to fish, and having a variety will help you find something they'll eat.

Finally, as other posters have noted, pay close attention to the condition of the fish in the shop before you buy them. They should be freely swimming around in the tank, and you should ask the shop owner to show you that the fish are eating before you buy them. If the owner refuses, or you see most of the fish offered for sale hiding in the corners of their tank, that's a bad sign, and I'd recommend finding another source for your fish.
 
Thanks for all of your suggestions. I'm going to take pieces of some of them and tweak the way I'm doing things now and hopefully be more successful.

Both clowns are still alive and seem to be doing much better. I am pretty hopeful that both are going to be fine and I lucked out.
 
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