Balancing heavy feeding with nutrient export

[Moser]

7x5ft? no freaking way! What size is your tank?

I have a 210gal and my double sided screen is like 12x8".


The new generation of ats screens are sized according to how much you feed your tank not on tank size/volume.

6x8x3ft

I looked into it a couple of years ago and was told thats what I would need, or a series of vertical screens, but it was not practical to have so many bulbs hanging between screens"¦..

Mo

 

[MisterP]

6x8x3!!!!!!! Holy moly!

 

[DavidinGA]

6x8x3ft

I looked into it a couple of years ago and was told thats what I would need, or a series of vertical screens, but it was not practical to have so many bulbs hanging between screens"¦..

Mo

Wowsers...

 

[Blueline12]

Jim, you can dose Microbacter while you start feeding more. It won't hurt and it will keep the Po4 and No3 from getting too high while you increase feeding.

Thanks for the posts guys. I know how important water changes are, but they are DREADED for me. Also, I know a lot of people suggest them, but there are others with extremely beautiful tanks that do not do water changes. So, its quite obvious that you can find success BOTH ways. I want to try as long as I can without doing water changes this time around. If all else is tried and it becomes clear that I cannot personally succeed without doing water changes, then I will start doing them.

I am pretty sure right now my problem is that I need to feed the tank more and get po4 and nitrates up a bit. I am just trying to plan ahead so I can sustain those levels with heavy feeding and a good nutrient export instead of waiting for algae to grow and then trying to address the issue after its already began.

DavidinGA - I agree with you on the ATS. I think I may end up buying one of Santa Monicas HOG scrubbers. I found GFO to be ineffective against GHA on another tank I had as well and started using a ATS on that one.

Reefvet - Thanks yeah I will keep an eye out on results from acropower. It had some really strong reviews and info here on the forums. If I feel like its causing a problem I will stop.

Blueline12 - Yeah I was thinking of trying prodibio or microbacter, but dont see a reason to start until po4 and no3 get a bit higher. Would you recommend dosing microbacter BEFORE having elevated po4?

Rovster - Beautiful pics, thanks for the inspiration!

 

[Bpb]

I have to echo what others have said. Sps look a little hungry and young as well. The biggest mistake I think any sps (or coral keeper) could make is hoping, expecting, and insisting on having a completely algae free tank. It's a pipe dream. Gold at the end of a rainbow. If you're gonna have water quality to create deep dark bold and pretty acropora, you will have some algae. Period. Accept it. Algae is the dominant food source on the reef in the wild. To have a ton of fish corals and inverts but zero algae is just plain unnatural. Just give it time. Be reasonable on water changes and feeding. Keep the fish happy and healthy. Regular water changes and heavy light.

I've done everything from organic carbon dosing with biopellets for a ULNS, gfo in a reactor, carbon, skimmer, all of the above, to now just running a refugium and that's it. I can honestly say I've had better acropora health and color when the water isn't quite so sterile and there's a little algae going. Not suggesting letting it over take the tank. But look closely at a lot of the sps pics you see on this subforum. You'll notice a bit of algae around the corals

 

[PaleHorse]

Tank is to young to support SPS. Wait until you get good coralline growth. May take several months

Here we go....

 

[MisterP]

Here we go....

Again

 

[Moser]

I have to echo what others have said. Sps look a little hungry and young as well. The biggest mistake I think any sps (or coral keeper) could make is hoping, expecting, and insisting on having a completely algae free tank. It's a pipe dream. Gold at the end of a rainbow. If you're gonna have water quality to create deep dark bold and pretty acropora, you will have some algae. Period. Accept it. Algae is the dominant food source on the reef in the wild. To have a ton of fish corals and inverts but zero algae is just plain unnatural. Just give it time. Be reasonable on water changes and feeding. Keep the fish happy and healthy. Regular water changes and heavy light.

I've done everything from organic carbon dosing with biopellets for a ULNS, gfo in a reactor, carbon, skimmer, all of the above, to now just running a refugium and that's it. I can honestly say I've had better acropora health and color when the water isn't quite so sterile and there's a little algae going. Not suggesting letting it over take the tank. But look closely at a lot of the sps pics you see on this subforum. You'll notice a bit of algae around the corals

+1

Regular, routine maintenance for at least the first year.
I have to admit doing less and less water changes as the tank gets older.

For the first two years, I did a water change (whole bucket of salt) every weekend. I never missed one.

This year I have done 3. nitrates have risen very slightly, but not a problem.
I think you need the water changes to maintain some balance, but also to remove excess nutrient and help the filter along for the first while.

Don't be afraid to feed- half a cube per day is almost nothing in my book.
Just monitor your nutrient levels and treat accordingly whether you choose an algae bed/ GFO/ ATS/ Pellets/ vodka or other"¦..

Your choice.

Mo

 

[Dapg8gt]

I think you have gotten some great advice in the thread already but I have to echo that you can't fight a problem you don't have (algae) and compound a problem you do have (dying coral).

My advice is make sure your skimmer and filtration is up to the task and feed heavy and start carbon dosing after nutrients rise. That along with some sort of p04 removal will do wonders for your tank. Don't be afraid of algae, if you want colorful corals your going to have to raise your N&P to get that right to rule out other things in the future that may happen plain and simple. And imo your next problem is going to be rtn on the more sensitive pieces if you keep up your current practices.

A 20g Brute is only $20 and it will help you a lot. I run a long tube from my garage with a valve on the end for water changes and do the same to the bathroom for old water. Makes it a lot easier to do water changes and I'm more likely to do them in larger quantity..

 

[jdamon]

I have been going through my own algea battle lately, and have been thinking about the whole balance of nutrients a lot. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet, that may sound a little crazy, is to add more coral. You don't have very much coral in there, so If you feed a lot, you will have to rely on all the other aforementioned techniques to keep your params in check. What I think is happening in my tank, is that the nutrients are hanging around too long (not enough coral or other means of export) and the algea is loving it. But, if you run a whole bunch of GFO, the nutrients get stripped too fast and coral looks pale. Obviously we need a balance of many things in our tanks to have the coral thriving. I do notice with a lot of the mature beautiful SPS tanks though, that there is tons of coral. So much so that there is no where for the algea to grow except the glass, or sump etc. kind of like my mother in law's killer flower beds. She has them packed with all these amazing flowers and herbs, and when I asked how she got them looking so good, she said "30 years of weeding!" Which makes sense, flowers and weeds eat the same nutrients, so when you start your flower beds, you don't usually have full coverage by the stuff you want, and weeds grow cause they eat the same thing. And, it takes a while and a lot of work to achieve that balance. Of course that's a loose analogy, but it does have some striking similarities.

So, do I think you should go out and buy 50 SPS coral frags? No, but until you have more demand/coverage by the coral in your tank (stuff you want to look at), you will be fighting algea. Or, you will be looking at pale coral. I made a little contraption for scrubbing and removing algea at the same time (tooth brush with modified bristles rubber banded to the end of a 5/8" flexible tube that I siphon through a filter sock and back into the sump. I mention that because you don't have to do a water change to thin out the algea. It's easy, and if you spend a few mins every couple days, it really knocks down the algea and no water change was done. You have to clean the filter sock, but if you want a maintanance free hobby, I would recommend African chiclids. I have also started carbon dosing at the same time as a means to have the bacteria take the place of the algea. Mind you, my nitrate has always tested zero, and phosphate has always tested very low too. So, I am attempting to swap algea for bacteria. If you started carbon dosing now, you could possibly avoid a lot of the algea, but the reality (as has been stated a bunch of times already) is that algea is gonna happen. iMO it's harder to achieve a balance with a few small corals, they will get outcompeted by the "weeds". So, until your coral grows out or you add more, you will have to do some weeding, with whatever method you like, ATS, GFO, Fuge, giant skimmer, carbon dosing, UV, filter socks, manual removal, or some combination of those items. Good luck!

 

[rovster]

Nice post Jeff. A concept I've pondered over myself from time to time. I've noticed that with coralline as well. Never really seen algae grow on coralline, but bare rocks are a primo target.

 

[DavidinGA]

I have been going through my own algea battle lately, and have been thinking about the whole balance of nutrients a lot. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet, that may sound a little crazy, is to add more coral. You don't have very much coral in there, so If you feed a lot, you will have to rely on all the other aforementioned techniques to keep your params in check. What I think is happening in my tank, is that the nutrients are hanging around too long (not enough coral or other means of export) and the algea is loving it. But, if you run a whole bunch of GFO, the nutrients get stripped too fast and coral looks pale. Obviously we need a balance of many things in our tanks to have the coral thriving. I do notice with a lot of the mature beautiful SPS tanks though, that there is tons of coral. So much so that there is no where for the algea to grow except the glass, or sump etc. kind of like my mother in law's killer flower beds. She has them packed with all these amazing flowers and herbs, and when I asked how she got them looking so good, she said "30 years of weeding!" Which makes sense, flowers and weeds eat the same nutrients, so when you start your flower beds, you don't usually have full coverage by the stuff you want, and weeds grow cause they eat the same thing. And, it takes a while and a lot of work to achieve that balance. Of course that's a loose analogy, but it does have some striking similarities.

So, do I think you should go out and buy 50 SPS coral frags? No, but until you have more demand/coverage by the coral in your tank (stuff you want to look at), you will be fighting algea. Or, you will be looking at pale coral. I made a little contraption for scrubbing and removing algea at the same time (tooth brush with modified bristles rubber banded to the end of a 5/8" flexible tube that I siphon through a filter sock and back into the sump. I mention that because you don't have to do a water change to thin out the algea. It's easy, and if you spend a few mins every couple days, it really knocks down the algea and no water change was done. You have to clean the filter sock, but if you want a maintanance free hobby, I would recommend African chiclids. I have also started carbon dosing at the same time as a means to have the bacteria take the place of the algea. Mind you, my nitrate has always tested zero, and phosphate has always tested very low too. So, I am attempting to swap algea for bacteria. If you started carbon dosing now, you could possibly avoid a lot of the algea, but the reality (as has been stated a bunch of times already) is that algea is gonna happen. iMO it's harder to achieve a balance with a few small corals, they will get outcompeted by the "weeds". So, until your coral grows out or you add more, you will have to do some weeding, with whatever method you like, ATS, GFO, Fuge, giant skimmer, carbon dosing, UV, filter socks, manual removal, or some combination of those items. Good luck!

Balance is super easy when you run an ATS. If I feed really heavy my ats grows faster. If I feed light the ATS grows slow. My NO3 and PO4 levels stay consistent no matter what.

I have also never have had dt algae issues, ever....

 

[Bpb]

I have been going through my own algea battle lately, and have been thinking about the whole balance of nutrients a lot. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet, that may sound a little crazy, is to add more coral. You don't have very much coral in there, so If you feed a lot, you will have to rely on all the other aforementioned techniques to keep your params in check. What I think is happening in my tank, is that the nutrients are hanging around too long (not enough coral or other means of export) and the algea is loving it. But, if you run a whole bunch of GFO, the nutrients get stripped too fast and coral looks pale. Obviously we need a balance of many things in our tanks to have the coral thriving. I do notice with a lot of the mature beautiful SPS tanks though, that there is tons of coral. So much so that there is no where for the algea to grow except the glass, or sump etc. kind of like my mother in law's killer flower beds. She has them packed with all these amazing flowers and herbs, and when I asked how she got them looking so good, she said "30 years of weeding!" Which makes sense, flowers and weeds eat the same nutrients, so when you start your flower beds, you don't usually have full coverage by the stuff you want, and weeds grow cause they eat the same thing. And, it takes a while and a lot of work to achieve that balance. Of course that's a loose analogy, but it does have some striking similarities.

So, do I think you should go out and buy 50 SPS coral frags? No, but until you have more demand/coverage by the coral in your tank (stuff you want to look at), you will be fighting algea. Or, you will be looking at pale coral. I made a little contraption for scrubbing and removing algea at the same time (tooth brush with modified bristles rubber banded to the end of a 5/8" flexible tube that I siphon through a filter sock and back into the sump. I mention that because you don't have to do a water change to thin out the algea. It's easy, and if you spend a few mins every couple days, it really knocks down the algea and no water change was done. You have to clean the filter sock, but if you want a maintanance free hobby, I would recommend African chiclids. I have also started carbon dosing at the same time as a means to have the bacteria take the place of the algea. Mind you, my nitrate has always tested zero, and phosphate has always tested very low too. So, I am attempting to swap algea for bacteria. If you started carbon dosing now, you could possibly avoid a lot of the algea, but the reality (as has been stated a bunch of times already) is that algea is gonna happen. iMO it's harder to achieve a balance with a few small corals, they will get outcompeted by the "weeds". So, until your coral grows out or you add more, you will have to do some weeding, with whatever method you like, ATS, GFO, Fuge, giant skimmer, carbon dosing, UV, filter socks, manual removal, or some combination of those items. Good luck!

Fantastic analogy.

 

[jimrawr]

couple updates.

1. Ordered a hog upflow algae scrubber

2. wait for ittttt.......... did a 15g water change today and vacuumed the sandbed

 

[jdamon]

Nice post Jeff. A concept I've pondered over myself from time to time. I've noticed that with coralline as well. Never really seen algae grow on coralline, but bare rocks are a primo target.

Thanks Rovster! I unfortunately have seen some algea growth on my coralline, but mechanically removing the GHA and brown snotty algea only helps the coralline and coral grow. And Coralline is way more attractive to look at than GHA and brown snot...

Balance is super easy when you run an ATS. If I feed really heavy my ats grows faster. If I feed light the ATS grows slow. My NO3 and PO4 levels stay consistent no matter what.

I have also never have had dt algae issues, ever....

I am sure ATS's work well, but I like the idea of carbon dosing more because it's way less expensive ($1.79/ 4 months vinegar vs. $300 up front, and electricity to run led's and an air pump), no noisy air pump inside the stand, and I feel the coral food chain benefits from the extra bacteria.

Fantastic analogy.

Thank you Bpb!

couple updates.

1. Ordered a hog upflow algae scrubber

2. wait for ittttt.......... did a 15g water change today and vacuumed the sandbed

Good to hear Jimrawr! Don't fear the algea, you will win with persistence and time. (And hopefully and algea turf scrubber!). You should throw a few more frags in there as well, forest Fire digi, ROAB German green/ blue digi, and most of the monti's really are cheap and way better to look at than algea. And you can prune/ remove them later if you want to put something else better (more expensive) in there.

 

[DavidinGA]

I am sure ATS's work well, but I like the idea of carbon dosing more because it's way less expensive ($1.79/ 4 months vinegar vs. $300 up front, and electricity to run led's and an air pump), no noisy air pump inside the stand, and I feel the coral food chain benefits from the extra bacteria.

Dude I spent like less than $100 (most of that was on a pump for the screen which you may not need if you use a drain line to feed your screen) on my ATS.

No reason in the world it would cost that much...


Carbon dosing is cheap but not without serious risks if you bacteria population get outta whack (you over/under dose for example).

 

[jdamon]

I was quoting the already assembled Santa monica version. And $100 plus the added electricity is still a lot more money than 1.79 a gallon for vinegar that lasts at least 4 months for me. I am not sure what risk you are talking about with adding too much acetic acid, the worst thing that happens is a bacterial bloom, which is just unsightly, but does no harm. Go nuts, use your ATS, but carbon dosing is a good method that has been around a long time. Read some of the articles that are linked in the reef chemistry forum, very interesting stuff.

 

[jdamon]

double post....

 

[DavidinGA]

I was quoting the already assembled Santa monica version. And $100 plus the added electricity is still a lot more money than 1.79 a gallon for vinegar that lasts at least 4 months for me. I am not sure what risk you are talking about with adding too much acetic acid, the worst thing that happens is a bacterial bloom, which is just unsightly, but does no harm. Go nuts, use your ATS, but carbon dosing is a good method that has been around a long time. Read some of the articles that are linked in the reef chemistry forum, very interesting stuff.

I was thinking of the possible issue where carbon dosing can lower the oxygen levels in your tank and that will in turn lower your pH and Alk (any of that happens too fast and all your sps will likely die from stn/rtn).

Also, the theory of if carbon dosing raises bacteria populations does it also increase the pathogenic bacteria that are thought to be responsible for tank crashes?


Personally I like the idea of carbon dosing but it presents more unknown variables and issues I'd rather not have to deal with if my goal is to simply reduce NO3/PO4 levels. If color is the goal I'd vote carbon dosing though....

 

[jdamon]

I was thinking of the possible issue where carbon dosing can lower the oxygen levels in your tank and that will in turn lower your pH and Alk (any of that happens too fast and all your sps will likely die from stn/rtn).

#. If you are running a skimmer and have good flow (surface agitation) in the display, oxygen deprivation from bacterial blooms is a non issue. The bacteria get skimmed out pretty quickly too.

Also, the theory of if carbon dosing raises bacteria populations does it also increase the pathogenic bacteria that are thought to be responsible for tank crashes?

#. Good point, but I add two different brands of bacteria (that claim to have 20 or so strains of "good" bacteria). Pathogenic bacteria also like slightly different conditions, anaerobic, so the only way I see them becoming a big problem is if you have deep sand bed that is neglected and or old, or a neglected tank in general.


Personally I like the idea of carbon dosing but it presents more unknown variables and issues I'd rather not have to deal with if my goal is to simply reduce NO3/PO4 levels. If color is the goal I'd vote carbon dosing though....

#. If the algea scrubber is working, you should keep using it. I think people had trouble with carbon dosing before the discovery that params need to be close to NSW, but it's pretty benign if your alk is 7-8dkh.