ball valves or not?

nah... it is just a common sense overflow :)

I am not big on branding!

Don't get me wrong... I have nothing against herbie... or many of the other "inventors" here at RC that have stuff named after them. I just get a kick out of the fact that most of the stuff has been around for ages... A lot of it is stolen right from the wastewater industry.

Even take the "calfo" overflow.... Anthony is one of our own club members (and acutally one of the founders). He advocates the long linear overflows... and they have now been badged "Calfo Overflows" He even gets a chuckle out of it.

I guess as long as everybody has a smile on their face and no water on the floor....
 
I'm sorry, I would like to read this, and try to picture what you've described, but it would be really nice if you could sketch something and scan it, or better yet, google sketch (this is what I use to draw, it is very easy to learn and helps others to understand what you are explaining in very complicated circumstances.)

I think any tank with just one standpipe is at the same risk, regardless of whether it is siphon assisted (partly closed) or not. In the end, this equates to just having a smaller u-tube, one which matches my return. Many people get lucky and get into this situation without having to use a valve, but for those who don't I see no reason why this could be any more problematic. It's simple physics, just consider the blocking of the ball valve to equate in a smaller diameter u-tube which allows a slower flow. In this case i'd be matching the return pump by closing the return a bit, but instead it is my u-tube that is large and my return that is less powerful.

Anyhow, if you can give me an answer instead of "this just won't work" i'd be glad to hear it.

:)
-A
 
I will try and get some photos or a sketch at some point

It depends on how that single standpipe is being used (with regards to the risk involved). If the standpipe is at open flow (not a siphon) then it is nowhere near it's capacity. In other words there is a lot of headroom before an overflow condition occurs. At some higher rate of flow or partial blockage, the open flow will form a siphon. This will increase the velocity and flow in the pipe dramaticaly. The added velocity may even partially clear the blockage.

If that single standpipe is at a siphon, then it will fall into 1 of 3 states. In the steady state, the siphon will dynamicaly adjust to a range of head pressures. Once the head increases past the upper threshold, an overflow condition will occur (this btw is where we want to run the siphon assisted overflow). Simple "hole in a bucket" equations can be used to simulate what happens here. If the head decreases below the minimum threshold, the siphon breaks and the system flushes. This cycle will keep repeating. Note that this is only a problem with U-tubes. A standpipe will self correct if the siphon breaks.

You are correct in that the U-Tube restriction is similar to using a ball valve to create a restriction. There are some difference in the system however. The U-Tube siphon can be broken by air and will not recvover. The standpipe siphon can be broken by air, but will self revover. The U-tube will possibly break siphon at a low flow from the return pump if it's capacity is LARGER than that of the return pump. In other words it will suck the water out of the tank faster than it is being replaced. In the standpipe situation this only serves to make gurgling noises as the standpipe siphons and flushes in a repetative cycle.


It should be clear that the basic problem with the U-Tube setup is the possibility of a siphon collapse and the possibility of an overflow due to a change in the pump parameters or the u-tube cross section (blockage due to algea, a snail etc).

So even though both the U-Tube and a single standpipe are "similar" they are worlds apart in terms of safety.

The ideal operating rate for a U-tube would be somewhere right in the middle of the siphons dynamic range. The problem becomes determining exactly what that range is. IE, how much flow will cause a flood, and how little flow will cause a siphon break. The return pump and the height of the water in the sump will change as the siphon changes the level in the display tank.

Remember there is a very dynamic relationship between sump water level and pump rate that directly corrolate to the head pressure on the siphon. The surface area of the display and return compartment are usually very different. This means that a small change in pump output can cause a LARGE change in the sump water level but not a lof of change in the head pushing on the siphon from the display.

I guess I could put it another way. I WOULD NEVER trust a siphon type of overflow without an emergency drain of some kind. You are trusting a balancing act that you have very little control over.

I never said it "would not work" I am saying that it is not the best idea, not matter how many people use it :) It is a flood waiting to happen. I would never be able to sleep knowing that I had to rely on a u-tube to keep my floors dry.

Using multiple u-tubes can add some redundancy to the setup, but can also make adjustment more complicated and they still leave the basic issue of what happens when the siphons fail. Then there is the old "return compartment will not hold enough to flood my tank" trick. Though this works... it severly limits evaporation capacity and puts the return pump in jeapordy of "run dry" failures.

Just some food for thought. There is no right or wrong way to plumb a tank... There are however ways that are much better than others.
 
People have tried to do a "Herbie" :) overflow on a U Tube setup, and it doesn't work. You cant do the silent overflow thing. A good U Tube overflow is perfectly reliable when used in the normal unrestricted drain fashion.
 
sjm817 I disagree about the reliable thing. It "works" but has some serious flaws (as mentioned). U-Tube overflows are certainly the root problem of numerous floods! Do people use them without problem? Of course they do. But people also get drunk and drive cars without problem.... sometimes.

Bean
 
I disagree with you on this one. There are poor overflows and there are good ones. People who use a good overflow dont have problems and have them running for years on end without issue.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8442776#post8442776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
I disagree with you on this one. There are poor overflows and there are good ones. People who use a good overflow dont have problems and have them running for years on end without issue.

I'll have to agree. I used a U tube overflow for a total of 7 or 8 years, on two completely different systems. Never had a problem. If a bubble would begin to build up in the tube, eventually, I'm assuming because of the design, it would get big enough and then "siphon" for lack of a better term, out of the U tube. Did that make sense?

hth
 
[hijack]
I've been using them for just 2 years now. I've used single, and dual Amiracles. Now a single Lifereef. I've had high. medium and low flow setups. I have yet to ever see a single bubble accumulate in the U Tube. Never. I power off several times a week when feeding, never a restart issue. I had it powered down for 3 days when I put in a new sump. Started right back up. The only way it could fail is if I pulled the U Tube out of the box.

The 90G with the Lifereef will soon be history. My 180RR is up and running. I have to transfer everything over. I have no complaints/regrets at all using a (quality) HOB overflow.

[/hijack]
 
Regardless of weather YOU have had problems or not.. the flaw is in the basic physics of the system. If course there are good and bad models.

The fact is that if the overflow fails, you will have a flood. There is no failsafe or inherent safety of any kind.

If you were to take all of the available overflow styles and rank them in order of overall "safety" with regards to chances of flooding, the U-Tube type would be at bottom of the list.'

In addition, if you looked at all of the overflow styles and ranked them in order of the chances that a malfunction of any kind would cause a catastrophic event (a flood)... well the the U-tube would be that the top of the list.

It is a simple matter of physics....

So again, you may be happy with yours and you may be able to find a list of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that are happy with theirs. This does nothing to mitigate the inherent risk that such an overflow poses.

I am not looking for an argument here... as there really is nothing to argue about anyway. Each type of overflow has a finite set of operating parameters and failure modes. A simple logic table would easily show the weaknesses and strengths of each type of setup.

Not to belabor the topic.... but another way to look at an overflow system is from a point-of-failure perspective. The U-tube type of setup is a single point failure system. The "herbie" overflow is a multipoint failure system (if properly setup it would take 3 complete points of failure to cause a flood).

This is the same we we look at any critical system. Your heater is another example. We can go through all of the different ways to heat a tank. You can find thousands of happy people who DO NOT use a temp controller and use a single heater. However, a single heater with no industrial/commercial controller is a disaster waiting to happen. Anybody who runs such a setup is flirting with disaster. Again, this is something that I would NEVER consider as acceptable practice.

Bean
 
I'll agree to disagree.

Take it for what its worth, but Lifereef claims NO failures in the 18 years they have been selling them. That is a fairly decent track record. There are many many people who have run many years without issue. That can not be ignored. I would say thousands or 100s of thousands is a pretty good record.

The bottom of the list (by far) is a CPR overflow, not a U Tube design.

If you have a tank that is up and running and dont want to/cant tear it down to drill it, the best option is to use a quality U Tube overflow. Thousands of people have been doing it for many years without a single hitch.
 
I just want to chime back in here with two things...

I agree, every hob overflow system (u-tube) would be better served by a failsafe drain in case of blockage (i've actually considered drilling the top of the box for a 1" bulkhead and a second drain, in case the water level ever got up that high.)

As far as what i'm doing, I am not doing the same thing Herbie is, that's why I said "sort of", I am actually just changing the flow rate of the drain by slightly closing the ball valve. I don't see this any more of a problem than any other u-tube design. The Lifereef u-tube will/should never lose siphon due to its design. I am not concerned with that at all. I would worry more about changes in the dynamic of the flow (if something blocked the drain, the box would overflow, and the design of the Lifereef is that this would not cause any loss of siphon, so it'd just siphon about 5g of water on to my floor, this would suck!)

I would like to discuss this further, but not sure if this thread is otherwise dead and we can take it over. What do you think about the second drain drilled into the overflow box in case of standpipe blockage?

-A
 
Why do you want to slightly restrict the drain? That sounds like a "Herbie" to me. To quiet it down?

As far as a failsafe drain because of a blockage in the drain, I dont see a difference in needing/not needing one in a HOB or internal overflow. If the drain is blocked, its blocked.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8447479#post8447479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Regardless of weather YOU have had problems or not.. the flaw is in the basic physics of the system. If course there are good and bad models.

The fact is that if the overflow fails, you will have a flood. There is no failsafe or inherent safety of any kind.

If you were to take all of the available overflow styles and rank them in order of overall "safety" with regards to chances of flooding, the U-Tube type would be at bottom of the list.'

In addition, if you looked at all of the overflow styles and ranked them in order of the chances that a malfunction of any kind would cause a catastrophic event (a flood)... well the the U-tube would be that the top of the list.

It is a simple matter of physics....

So again, you may be happy with yours and you may be able to find a list of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that are happy with theirs. This does nothing to mitigate the inherent risk that such an overflow poses.

I am not looking for an argument here... as there really is nothing to argue about anyway. Each type of overflow has a finite set of operating parameters and failure modes. A simple logic table would easily show the weaknesses and strengths of each type of setup.

Not to belabor the topic.... but another way to look at an overflow system is from a point-of-failure perspective. The U-tube type of setup is a single point failure system. The "herbie" overflow is a multipoint failure system (if properly setup it would take 3 complete points of failure to cause a flood).

This is the same we we look at any critical system. Your heater is another example. We can go through all of the different ways to heat a tank. You can find thousands of happy people who DO NOT use a temp controller and use a single heater. However, a single heater with no industrial/commercial controller is a disaster waiting to happen. Anybody who runs such a setup is flirting with disaster. Again, this is something that I would NEVER consider as acceptable practice.

Bean

Sorry, I was specifically refering to loss of siphon in the U tube due to air collecting, as this is a unique feature to a hang on the back U tube overflow. I've seen some that collect air, and stop working. Mine would collect air and clear itself. That was my only point. Of course they have more chance of failure than other desgns/overflows. No one would argue that. I was just saying some are designed better than others.
 
There are overflows that dont collect air. That is the major thing that separates a good overflow from a bad one. I've seen so many posts like "they are all the same, so just get a cheap one", which is simply not true.
 
reeflday.... I guess I did not make the difference as clear as I should have.

Using the ball valve to restrict the flow IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

You need to uderstand that the size of the U-TUBE should not be the governing factor. The RETURN PUMP is what governs the flow through the siphon. Therefore you can not equate the dymanic of a properly sized U-Tube overflow to a siphon restricted by size.

By using a ball valve to restrict the flow, you are in effect pushing the siphon to its maximum upper flow limit. It will flow a bit more as the head increases... but in effect you have pushed the system to the limit. Any slight change may be enough to set the system out of balance. This change could be the slow build up of algea or other matter. A quick blockage from a piece of disloged turg algea, a slime coat that breaks down and creates more frictionm, barometric pressure.... any number of things can cuase the delicate balance of a valve restricted siphon to colapse.

Feel free to start another thread and we can discuss the details...

Bean
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8440302#post8440302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Thinking about it, I can also see the seeping scenario if you have durso standpipes with loose joints...

joshuaroot - if you do end up using ball vaves, just make sure they can be removed. After several years, they have a serious probability of getting stuck, and require a quick vinegar bath.

That's why I used True Unions anywhere I needed a valve.

Oh ya, I have one that's only a year old and it won't budge. Not true union either. :( I will be changing it out soon.

Jason
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8441629#post8441629 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I just get a kick out of the fact that most of the stuff has been around for ages... A lot of it is stolen right from the wastewater industry.

I work in the industry (as a consulting engineer) and I'm still amazed at how much overlap there is with reefing. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8925361#post8925361 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lakee911
Oh ya, I have one that's only a year old and it won't budge. Not true union either. :( I will be changing it out soon.

Jason

:confused: I'm not sure what part of my quote you are refering to. Are you saying that you have a ball valve that has frozen after only a year? #1. That why I say use true unions so the valve can be removed and cleaned. #2. Sound like you are precipitating calcium carbonate at a high rate (oversaturation, improper balance/pH).

hth
 
Yes, I am saying my ball valve is frozen. You're right, TUBV are the way to go and you're right that they get stuck.

Well, if I recall correctly the ball valve was very tight to begin with---junk from lowes. Might be a little calcium carbonate, some gunk in the pipe and the excessively tight ball valve. Maybe I'm just afraid to give it a good turn too.

Jason
 
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