BC question.

[dahenley]

I have been looking around for a few things to add to my Diving arsenal.
(mainly because i wear a abnormally large size..)


A friend of mine has a Back plate and wing set up. (i have seen them and liked them but never used one.)

i was wondering what are some options. my LDS has a BC that he claims is used for Tech and Cave diving. it is capable of dual tanks and other things. i had to leave so i dont know what brand it is or anything, but i will find out later. he claims it normally retails for 8-900 and he would sell it to me for half. (he doesnt do a lot of business anymore, so everything he has he gives for almost cost. (he is our dive instructor at our college)

my main question is, what does a person look for in a BC?
im 6'7" and around 290ish........ i wear a 3-4X wet suit


i was told that some places might not carry a BC when i go diving other places. (where i would normally rent my equipment)

i dont plan on buying anything else for a while, but i really want some opinions.

any opinions and help are wanted.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Hey, buddy!

Good questions - definitely check out some of the other threads here on this forum that have addressed the same concerns/questions.

Regardless of where you look on the internet, there always seems to be a large, minority group of divers that tout backplates and wings. Those who do a lot of diving, especially, tend to gravitate towards them. In fact, it seems that there are really two groups out there regarding backplates and wings: Those who love them, and those who haven't tried them.

Here's a list of small advantages and disadvantages to backplates and wings:

Advantages:

1. Backplates and wings are completely modular - that is, you choose the setup that you want, and assemble it yourself. There are literally dozens of companies out there making parts for backplates and wings, which are completely interchangable. Thus, you can dive a "simple rig" when you're in a pool and get as "sophisticated" as you want when doing serious, demanding dives. Almost all rebreathers utilize a backplate and wing as a basis, and backplates and wings support doubles systems as well as they support singles systems, with or without countless modifications. For what it's worth, most BC's do NOT support doubles systems (there is only a handful that do), so if you ever plan on diving doubles or rebreathers or sling bottles or scootering, a BC will either not work for you at all or work only moderately.

2. Generally speaking (there are alternatives), backplates and wings utilize a single long piece of webbing to create the harness, which is totally custom-fit for you, by you. Fitment is always perfect and totally custom, because you made it that way. Some plates are now made in "small" and "large" sizes, but it's a misnomer... Plates are sized to fit tanks, not people - so a standard-sized plate is the way to go regardless of your size... And you make the harness the size that you want. Aside from the perfect fit offered by a backplate and wing's custom harness, the entire harness can be replaced by you in a matter of a half hour or so - so a few years into your diving when your harness is all worn out, the entire thing can be replaced for less than $20. Try that with a "BC."

3. A stainless steel backplate resting on your back is remarkably comfortable, especially when worn over a wetsuit. Yes, it looks gnarly, but they are far from it. Instead, they offer stability and security for your tank(s) and the rest of your rig that is unmatched by a "these four to six sizes of BC fit everyone perfectly" BC. Dive one, and I'm sure you'll agree.

4. Many BC's are measured in terms of "inherent bouyancy" - that is, they're all slightly positive, meaning that they ADD to the amount of weight that you need to be correctly weighted in the water. A stainless steel backplate is quite the opposite - not only does it have no inherent bouyancy, but it's actually negative in the water - meaning that you can usually take 6-10 pounds off of your belt as compared to the same dive in a "standard" BC.

5. Wings are interchangable, as they all have 11" "centers" (the holes used to bolt the system together). You can choose a large wing for when you need it (doubles, steel tanks, drysuits, cold weather) and a smaller, simpler, much more managable wing for when you can get away with it (single aluminum tanks in tropical waters and/or traveling).

6. Performance: Nothing on the market - ever - has been as streamlined and balanced as a backplate and wing. For more information regarding this phenomenon and why performance is so astounding with a backplate and wing, see an article I wrote years ago for the DIR Explorers group: http://www.deepsouthdivers.org/old/homebc.html (Note that the beginning sentence in the third paragraph asks the same question that you did, above... )

Disadvantages:

1. Backplates and wings can be intimidating to a lot of people. They look like the serious dive gear that they are, and not like "beach toys." With many people attracted to scuba for the "beach toy" slant, many people will simply move onto something that they consider "friendlier."

2. Backplates and wings take several dives to get adjusted properly. Unlike most BCs that simply require you to pull down on a couple of straps to adjust "on the fly," backplates and wings demand to be adjusted between dives for the perfect fit. This makes them a poor choice for rental gear, but an excellent choice for personal gear, since the lack of "on the fly" adjustments also means that they keep their correct adjustments over time and do not need constant attention on every dive like a standard BC will. Lately there are several offerings in the marketplace called "deluxe harnesses" or "adjustable harnesses" or "Infinity" systems out there, and they are blurring the line between "quick adjustment" and "permanent adjustment." However, all of these offerings, while more easily adjusted, add to the complexity of the rig and detract from one of a backplate and wing's major advantages - the simplicity and infinite adjustability of a single piece of webbing valued at about $20. Unlike claims, there is no significant difference in "comfort" between padded straps and non-padded straps if you're wearing a wetsuit. In fact, to a degree, padding offered in many "comfort" designs can actually detract from the rig's feeling of solidity.

I have heard that padded straps can be appreciated if you dive without a wetsuit at all - for example, in a T-shirt or shirtless. I don't know why anyone would ever do that, however... Even the warmest water still makes a diver cold after an hour or two, and the water's filled with all sorts of stingy, pokey things that a wetsuit can protect you from.

3. Cost: Initial costs for backplates and wings are usually about the same as some of the best offerings in the "standard BC" marketplace... Usually ranging from about $500 to $800 for a comparable, well-equipped highline BC. However, true cost-of-ownership for a backplate and wing can actually be much LOWER than that of a standard BC, as resale values for backplates and wings rarely dip below 50%, even for a several-year-old system. Contrarily, standard BC's typically lose about 50% of their value the first year, and usually bottom out around $75 or $100 several years later, depending on the BCs condition. The difference is due to the ruggedness and life expectancy of backplates and wings, and the fact that their design changes little from year to year.

If initial costs are a concern, consider the purchase of a 2 year-old backplate and wing. It'll last literally a lifetime, work for all kinds of diving (and support you as you grow in diving), and hold much better resale value if/when you go to sell it. Backplates and wings are generally available on the used market on eBay, or on ScubaBoard's or TheDecoStop's classifieds section.

Knowing you and your size, I would recommend a Koplin plate available here: http://www.oxycheq.com/Wings-BackPlates.html Look for item ROWB-01-02. I also recommend item ROWB-03-03, which is the harness, D-rings, buckle and crotch strap (don't let the crotch strap scare you - they're awesome). Specify that you want a 15-foot piece of webbing instead of a 12-footer, just in case you need it to accomodate your size. Lastly, pick up a "Light" single tank adapter (item number ROWB-06-02) here: http://www.oxycheq.com/Wings-STA.html .

The only things you'll need in addition is a wing (my favorite is Halcyon's 30-pound Eclipse wing - purchase it from my buddies Doug and Andrew at Extreme Exposure in High Springs - http://www.extreme-exposure.com/product/bc/wings ) and a set of cam bands (these, which don't need to be wet to work, and come completely apart for very easy changing of tanks: http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=ScubaMaxTankStrap ).

In all, what I've just recommended to you will be pricier than your buddy's "half off" BC, but will be something that you keep and use for all of your diving for the rest of your life, and serve you much better than any BC ever could. It'll also have a much better resale value if you ever decide to stop diving.

Hope that helps.

 

[dahenley]

that gives a ton of info, and very useful info.

just a general question, do all regular BC's fell like they are trying to rise up around you when your in the water? or does this happen because it is too loose or doesnt fit correctly? (i am talking about when you inflate the BC and are sitting on the surface of the water.)

Thanks.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

By the way... I just reread your original post:

A friend of mine has a Back plate and wing set up. (i have seen them and liked them but never used one.)

Ask him to show it to you - try it out if he'll let you (and if it'll fit you - he may already have adjusted his correctly and be inclined to not want the adjustments changed).

my LDS has a BC that he claims is used for Tech and Cave diving.

Negative.

Very rarely will you see a cave diver wearing anything but a backplate and wing... This is due to their "balance" and "performance" that I talked about in the article I wrote. As you can imagine, loss of bouyancy or an errant fin kick inside a cave can literally silt the place out for weeks - or even destroy a stalactite or stalagmite that took millions of years to grow. I have never seen a fellow caver diving anything but a backplate and wing.

As far as "tech" diving goes... That, too, is false information. It's funny - I see the term "tech" in recreational diving to describe diving outside of recreational limits - in other words, mandatory staged decompression diving (either long or deep or both) and in overhead diving. Those people who do these activities never call it "tech" - that is, the term "tech" is used by recreational divers, but not "tech" divers.

...Anyone who claims to be diving "tech" probably isn't.

According to the recreational diving community, "tech" is "diving outside of recreational limits." To do this, obviously, requires doubles. Thus, if a BC can not support doubles, then it clearly is not "tech," even though it says it is.

Either your friend is mistaken or he is lying to you - "tech" divers don't wear BCs... They wear backplates and wings, with very rare exception.

it is capable of dual tanks and other things.

What BC is it? As I mentioned above, there are a handful of BCs that are capable of handling doubles. Does it have a changable air cell, too? If not, then the cell will either be too big and difficult to manage when diving singles (it'll "taco") or too small with not enough lift when diving doubles. Clearly, this would not be a good situation either way, and the reason why I recommend the modularity (and changable wings) of a backplate and wing.

i had to leave so i dont know what brand it is or anything, but i will find out later. he claims it normally retails for 8-900 and he would sell it to me for half.

My bet is that it's a SeaQuest Black Diamond. If so, I can tell you that they are very finely-built BCs... And unique in the industry for it's internal, wrap-around, semirigid plastic structure that makes it feel like a military flak jacket. But for $450 you can purchase a much more streamlined, rock-solid feeling, less restrictive, adjustable and customizable backplate and wing that will serve your needs much better and be truly "tech" and not "marketing-tech."

i was told that some places might not carry a BC when i go diving other places. (where i would normally rent my equipment)

I doubt that - a BC is considered standard rental gear. Your size might be difficult to accomodate, though... Why not call around to some of the places that you intend on diving and find out?

It'd be silly to spend $500 on something that you could rent for $10 if you're only going to dive five or six times a year... Remember, if you own it, you're also going to have to clean it, pack it, carry it, and maintain it... And fix it when it breaks.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

that gives a ton of info, and very useful info.

Good. I hope that helps.

just a general question, do all regular BC's fell like they are trying to rise up around you when your in the water?

No.

or does this happen because it is too loose or doesnt fit correctly? (i am talking about when you inflate the BC and are sitting on the surface of the water.)

Yes.

That you are asking that question tells me that you're not being properly fit for a BC.

One of two things need to be present to prevent the uncomfortable rise-up that you're speaking of... A cummerbund or a crotch strap.

A cummerbund is the large velcro waist band that is designed to place pressure under your rib cage to prevent the rig from riding up on you when it's fully inflated. The problem with that concept is... It only works on skinny people, and when it does, it prevents them from being able to take a full breath as it pushes up on the diaphragm.

A crotch strap is a much better design - like wearing a 5-point racing harness in the water. They look like they'd be terribly uncomfortable and super-wedgy material, but the truth is that they're worn very loosely and apply such little pressure at the base of your pelvis that you rarely even know they're present. They do, however, very effectively prevent wearing your BC around your ears.

The reason why most BCs are sold without crotch straps (in fact, most of them don't even have the option of one) is because they APPEAR to be uncomfortable, super-wedgie-makers... So they're a hard sell. The truth is vastly different from appearances, however - a difference that some call "surface logic" to describe why things in the dive shop often seem like such a great idea but translate to crap underwater.

When looking for a crotch strap, stick to the wide, 2" strap rather than the recreational-viewpoint 1" "tech" crotch strap. The 1" CAN create wedgies. The 2" is virtually invisible, except no more "ear hooking" BC.

For what it's worth, there are two things that can worsen a preexisting "ear hooK" condition... A lot of weight on the diver (like a very heavy belt) and/or a BC with waaaaay too much lift in it, inflated to it's max at the surface. Either or both situations can create a problem where the forces pulling the BC up and the forces pulling the diver down can create "ear hook" BCs. One solution would be to use a weight-integrated BC instead of a belt, as that would then force the BC to play the weight-vs.-lift tug-of-war (instead of tugging on the diver), but that will only mask the real problem of a poor-fitting BC. A much better solution is a proper fitment (like what you'd get out of a fully-customizable backplate a wing) and a crotch strap to limit the rig's movement. It'll also help to reduce both the lift and weight forces - in other words, a smaller wing and less lead... And even a distribution of lead on your rig rather than all of it on your belt. But more on that later...

Friends don't let friends ear hook. Dive a backplate and wing - with a crotch strap. And stick with a 30-pound wing and take 6-10 lbs. off of your belt, 'cause it's already in the backplate and wing. Simple. No more "ear hook," a perfect fit, and a dramatically improved dive experience.

 

[dahenley]

Sweet.

(even more helpful)
i understand the crotch strap. i have been strapped into a few 5 point harnesses.

that makes a person lean so much more toward the back plate and wing. (i liked and understood the concept, but with so many BC's out there and so many new models coming every now and then, there has to be a give take and it sounds like what you mentioned before. those who dive with one and those that havent tried one.


(my LDS is a small hole in the wall place and he Dove with a Back plate and wing for many years and loved it. he now uses a Weight integrated BC. mainly because he teaches the class at out University and doesnt do much recreational diving any more.)

as far as some of the things that he mentioned, i was absorbing as much as possible and i am sure i goobed up some of what he said. (my memory doesnt repeat things very well, tell me a joke and ask me to repeat it and see how much different it is.. haha)

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Sweet.
i understand the crotch strap. i have been strapped into a few 5 point harnesses.

Cool! Do tell...

...with so many BC's out there and so many new models coming every now and then, there has to be a give take...

Sheesh... Tell me about it! Every year, they come up with something "greater, better, bigger, faster, more..." Drives me nuts! They're all just reiterations of what didn't work the last time around.

(my LDS is a small hole in the wall place and he Dove with a Back plate and wing for many years and loved it. he now uses a Weight integrated BC.

Yep... Amazing how quickly you'll change your mind for the dollar, isn't it? A company gives him a new BC, tells him to push their brand, and presto... He's a changed man.

Maybe that's why he's a "small, hole in the wall" LDS.

...mainly because he teaches the class at out University and doesnt do much recreational diving any more.

I don't know this guy from Adam, but what you're describing to me is a dive shop owner selling dive equipment, not a diver giving you a valuable opinion. If the guy's doing more marketing than diving, then I would say to avoid his opinion.

There are a lot of people in the world who DIVE every day instead of SELL every day. Those are the guys to listen to.

as far as some of the things that he mentioned, i was absorbing as much as possible and i am sure i goobed up some of what he said.

No worries... Doesn't sound like he had much to say worth remembering anyway.

It's like asking a car salesman what the best car is... Well, it's the one he's selling, and the one he can "give you a deal" on, of course!

If you really want to know what's the best car, ask someone who drives every day or works on them every day. Chances are, he'll tell you something very different from what the car salesman tells you.

Backplates and wings, my friend. Avoid the bullshit.

Jet fins. Apeks or HOG regs. Simple, black-skirted masks... And lights that work.

 

[Sloeber]

Sorry to hijack... Are you the same SeaJay that used to post on ScubaBoard?

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Yep, I'm still there... Just under the name "Deep South Divers" - my company name. Do you and I know each other?

 

[Sloeber]

Nope. I've been a lurker at ScubaBoard for a very long time and I just remember your profile being active over there and then you vanished. IIRC you tried some sort of world record for consecutive hours underwater or something like that... or am I thinking of someone else?

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Well, it's very nice to meet you!

I've done several phases of the World Record dive... Including three 24-hour fundraiser dives, two 48-hour "test" dives, a 72-hour "test" dive, and a 56-hour single dive in open water (the rest were confined dives in an aquarium - the 56-hour dive was required for decompression).

The World Record dive that created such a stir over there at ScubaBoard will be a 336-hour dive, also in an aquarium... The problem is that I'm having a lot of difficulty finding an available facility that can monitor temperature, salinity, and water quality... That's not already being used. It's simply a matter of time, though, and I have built good friendships with key people to make it happen.

There's other World Records that I'm attempting as well, other than the "Longest Scuba Submergence" that is the 336-hour dive... There's also a "Longest Open Water" (96 hours - more difficult than being in a controlled environment for 336 hours) and a distance record (Guinness hasn't yet classified it and given it a name) that will include scootering nonstop from Florida to Cuba and back (the international lines are part of the record).

To this day I still get asked about the records, based on the bashing I took over there at ScubaBoard. I don't really talk much about them any more because of people's crappy attitudes... I'll talk about them after they're complete and solidified.

Another reason why I haven't nailed the record yet is because I was diagnosed with cancer. It took me about three years to get back on my feet, which meant that the records were on hold until I was able to get well again. Even then, my focus was on the financial recovery that ensued from all of the chemo and hospitalization.

The net result, though, is a healthy body a very new outlook on life, and a fresh attitude regarding accomplishment and how to make things happen. I know now that my capacity to suffer is much, much higher than I ever thought possible. Consequently, my tenacity and ability to "not quit" has increased exponentially. This has changed my life - my interpersonal relationships are much more solid than ever before, my business is thriving, and my feeling of self-worth and personal satisfaction is through the roof. I also look at people very differently than I ever did before - now, when I look at someone, I see them young, I see them old, I see them sick, I see them healthy, and I see them both rich and poor. It's changed what I value in people, for I have seen the pretty become ugly, the ugly become starlets, the tough get their asses handed to them, and children teach their elders about courage and belief.

...Anyway, along the way of the journey of cancer, I learned a lot - and it's stuff I needed to know to be successful at these World Records. I sacrificed valuable body parts to the disease - but the disease taught me things that I could not have learned any other way, and I am a better person today for it, with more gained than lost. I am proud that I took from cancer more than it took from me.

...And if it were to return, I'd do the same - probably better the second time around.

A person's attitude about life changes when he realizes that he's tougher than cancer. It changes again when he realizes that the 11 year-old girl in chemo next to him is, too.

The World Records? Yes... That's me. But they are not the prize. They are a symptom of the prize. They are a result of tenacity... The ability to suffer. The ability to get back up one more time than you fell down. THAT is the prize - the gift that you can literally make anything happen, because you know you won't quit.

 

[ackee]

Backplates and wings are excellent, efficient, and sleek, but there are more positive aspects about BCs, especially well designed back inflate BCs , than have been mentioned, and perhaps a few tiny elements regarding back plates and wings that are less than wonderful. Convenience in general and air travel in particular may raise a few issues in connection with wings/plates for recreational divers, but I hesitate to go into them, since they are not extreme problems, and doing so in this string might make me feel like a atheist in one of those churches where they roll on the floor and handle snakes.

My advice is to check out a recreational Zeagle BC. They back inflate so there is no squeeze, are very sturdy, very light, have pockets and other such conveniences unobtrusively built in, weigh almost nothing, fold down to a small package, are soft and lovable and don't make the TSA think you might have an anti-tank round in your luggage, are as sleek as an eel, and so streamlined you are really not aware of it when it's on, and , finally, are so adjustable they can fit your size effortlessly. An extra large would fit like it was custom made. Made in the USA, too, and the owners will take your phone calls. I've been diving a Scout for about 12 years, and it's the cheapest one. It's been all over the world, and still as good as new. I can stuff it in 1/4 of a carry on. Many standard BCs have issues. In my experience, Zeagles do not.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Convenience in general and air travel in particular may raise a few issues in connection with wings/plates for recreational divers, but I hesitate to go into them, since they are not extreme problems, and doing so in this string might make me feel like a atheist in one of those churches where they roll on the floor and handle snakes.

Hahahahaaa...

Backplate and wing people DO seem like zealots, don't they? There is a reason for that, of course... But hey, that's just my opinion - and I can understand and respect others for having a different one.

I know Scott Zeagle fairly well, at least through online conversations. He's quite available to his clients, and from what I've seen, makes an excellent product. Interestingly, many of his BC designs allow for the addition of a backplate, which blurs the line between backplate/wings and BCs. He also sells true backplates and wings, giving the client the interesting option of purchasing a BC today, adding a backplate later (for stability) and then ditching the original BC part of the rig for a purist backplate. Few have done so much to help people transition from BCs to backplates and wings as Scott Zeagle.

Personally, I don't see the need to "transition" - the best that can be said about a BC is that it's "as good as a backplate." Why not just get a backplate and wing in the first place and be set for whatever type of diving you want to do in the first place? Why settle for "it'll feel like it was custom fit" when you CAN have "custom fit?"

With regards to travel, backplates and wings pack as flat as a pancake... Much flatter than most BCs on the market... And if it's an aluminum plate, the entire rig weighs less than 2 pounds... Close to the same as a folded-up "travel" BC. Sure, they don't fold like some other BCs do, but neither does any BC that has an internal structure designed for stability. Folding BCs have huge disadvantages in terms of stability, and none of them allow for diving doubles, rebreathers, sling or stage bottles, or many other types of diving that a new diver may want to try in a year or two.

I've never had anyone search my luggage for an "anti-tank round" regarding my backplate and wing... In an X-ray, a backplate and wing looks more like a laptop computer than an anti-tank round... But hey, if that's the worst that can be said about a backplate and wing...

For what it's worth, Scott Zeagle dives with one of his brand-name backplates and wings. That said, he sells not only them, but a variety of BCs, too, recognizing that some people simply "go to another church."

 

[ackee]

You are certainly and unassailably correct, and I hesitate to even comment on your statements. Still, an aluminum backplate by itself is close to two pounds. Then there's the harness, maybe about the same, plus the bladder. All this totals close to a the weight of my Scout, which also has little pockets with zippers and other nifty features, and, while it is not as flat as a pancacke it does taste as good as a BP and wings, and can be bent around corners. Not that I'm comparing a scout to wings and backplate. I'm not that much of a heretic. I have often used a backplate and wings, and I like them. I'm enough of a sinner, though, to prefer traveling with my Scout. I've been diving long enough to remember using the Manta, which stands in relation to B/P and wings, I suppose, as John the Baptist does to Jesus.
It may be that the Zeagles are a transition between those who have wings and mere mortals, but I see my Zeagle BC as comparable to wings, slightly different, and a bit more convenient for me, for the kind of diving I do. The nearly infinite range of adjustments on a Zeagle BC make them every bit as custom fitted as BP and wings. I should point out, in the interests of full disclosure, that I do not sell these things or any other kind of diving equipment. I also pay full retail, except for the Scubaboard discount.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Lol... "John the Baptist vs. Jesus." Funny.

Manta = AT Pak? I'm not familiar with the brand "Manta," but I remember the AT Pak's from the '70's. They always struck me as the spiritual forefather of today's backplate. Are we talking about the same thing?

"Mere mortals..." "Sinner..." Hesitation... Unlike ScubaBoard, my friend, there's no religion here. We're just talking about scuba rigs, that's all. Nobody's gonna jump anyone for having a different opinion...

Where 'bouts in NJ? How's the wrecking up there?

 

[ackee]

Theological references were just for fun, not serious. The "Manta" I remember from about 50 years ago was like the AT Pac, but absolutely nothing like the BC jackets sold under the 'manta' name in more recent years. It was black with big back mounted squared off wings that extended outward, thus the name 'Manta'. The various legal and corporate changes in the dive business probably morphed this primitive back plate /wings into some other name and configuration before it vanished. I borrowed an original Manta a couple of times around 1969. Vintage stuff in the scuba business often seems to disappear without a trace, because they were made by one company for another company, etc. and brand names were often nothing more than a stamp. I think the Manta I am referring to was made in Italy. It was long ago, a time of J valves and no SPGs.

I live in North Jersey, and do most of my diving these days in the tropics. I have dived many if not most of the Jersey wrecks, but not too much anymore. Too cold, at times much too much stress. I'm gererally ok, but I've seen people run out of air, hit their heads, jump off the boat onto other divers, drink too much beer, panic, get belligerent, and dozens of other stupid behaviors. A lot of Jersey/NY diving has become like driving on the Turnpike while drivers all around you are texting in their SUVs. A continual need for new business has brought a lot of imbeciles into the sport. The rare occasions I dive locally are very shallow inlet and jetty dives (usually alone), or a charter with people I know. I do a lot of fish watching, and some collecting for my aquaria.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Very cool stuff! One of my alma maters is Rutgers - both Camden and New Brunswick campuses. I actually grew up in Indian Mills (now called Shamong), which is near Medford Lakes... Which is near Cherry Hill. That's South Jersey, right on the edge of the Pines.

I lived in Summit, too, for a few years as a child.

The idiocy that you mention isn't a Jersey-only thing... I, too, do a lot of diving alone, on my own boats, for that reason. If I'm looking for a buddy, I pick someone I know and like and get along with and can trust my dive to... Problem solved.

Idiocy can be seen pretty much everywhere, I think... I can't imagine adding a Yankee attitude to it. I feel for ya, man.

Sounds like you and I would make good dive buddies.

 

[ackee]

I agree that idiocy is everywhere. It tends to be concentrated on headboats that have lots of newly certified divers strutting around with big knives, and kids with Adv.Open Water certification who are still afraid of deep water, and blow through their air so fast their bubbles look like an Icelandic volcano. Over the years I've lost my tolerance, especially when somebody who knows WAY less than I do starts fiddling with my tank valve to see if I forgot to turn it on. My reaction is, I'll admit, extremely unpleasant.

I like diving with a couple of guys out of Morehead City when I get down that way. I dive and explore Dominica every chance I get, and visit places a little off the beaten path when I can. Last Thanksgiving week I was in Panama and Venezuela. I hand caught and brought back a small Spotted Drum that has grown quite a bit compared to the pics in my little album on this site, which also illustrates the way Customs made sure I had only fish in my check-through cooler. A couple of Jersey Gulf Stream strays are also there.

For me, fish always came first (from the age of 6) and scuba was mainly a way to get closer. That priority order still holds. I know I'm far less skilled than you, and certainly not in comparable physical condition, but I very much appreciate the flattering comments.

I did my advanced grad work (history and literature) at Rutgers Graduate school in New Brunswick, and also taught there as a teaching assistant. I recently retired after completing 30 years of college teaching, though I still teach one or two courses a semester at my small state university for the sheer joy of doing what I love. Having a captive audience helps.

I know Shamong Township/Indian Mills very well, and did some work there once in connection with the descendants of some Lenape who remained after the tribe was removed to Pennsylvania and Ohio. These remnants are the only authentic Amerinds in NJ, although there are lots of fradulent claims. I'm sure you know Indian Mills was the first Indian reservation in the United States. I'm a Pinelands lover, and am very familiar with the area, its history, and its flora and fauna. I remember Busby's when the Busbys actually owned it. The best of luck in your business ventures.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

I agree that idiocy is everywhere. It tends to be concentrated on headboats that have lots of newly certified divers strutting around with big knives, and kids with Adv.Open Water certification who are still afraid of deep water, and blow through their air so fast their bubbles look like an Icelandic volcano. Over the years I've lost my tolerance, especially when somebody who knows WAY less than I do starts fiddling with my tank valve to see if I forgot to turn it on. My reaction is, I'll admit, extremely unpleasant.

Hahahahahaa!!! And I thought I was the only one! My response is usually something like, "Don't touch my life support." If it happens a second time, I usually ask the kid if he wants to keep his fingers.

There are times that I have gotten on a cattleboat (only when there's no other option to dive) and tipped the divemaster BEFOREHAND, slipping him a $20 and saying, "Please leave me alone." To me, $20 is a small price to have him go away.

For me, fish always came first (from the age of 6) and scuba was mainly a way to get closer. That priority order still holds. I know I'm far less skilled than you, and certainly not in comparable physical condition, but I very much appreciate the flattering comments.

I'm flattered, but you've been doing it longer. I didn't start diving until 1986.

You've heard the joke about the old bull and the young bull, right?

The two of them are standing at the top of a hill, looking down at the herd. The young one says, "Hey, old-timer... How 'bout we charge down there and have us some of them cows?" The older, wiser bull says, "How 'bout we WALK down there and have all of 'em?"

Anyone diving in Joisey is good in my book, my new friend... You sound like a great dive buddy.

You'll have to tell me about Dominica and Venezuela... I've never been to either.

I know Shamong Township/Indian Mills very well, and did some work there once in connection with the descendants of some Lenape who remained after the tribe was removed to Pennsylvania and Ohio. These remnants are the only authentic Amerinds in NJ, although there are lots of fradulent claims. I'm sure you know Indian Mills was the first Indian reservation in the United States.

Yep... Totally rural and farms-only when I was a kid. I hear it's really grown up now. On Google Earth, I hardly recognize it.

I'll be visiting for the first time in about 20 years in the early part of June... I can't wait to see it and so many people that I grew up with. Er, "With whom I grew up," professor.

I'm a Pinelands lover, and am very familiar with the area, its history, and its flora and fauna. I remember Busby's when the Busbys actually owned it. The best of luck in your business ventures.

Thank you, my friend!

I, too, loved the Pines as a kid. It's difficult to explain to people how rural NJ can be.

...So let me as you this, Doc (mind if I call you Doc? I assume you're PhD'd)... Given that you know history and understand how to research it... Can you help me fill in some of the blanks for our local shipwrecks? Is that something that you would be good at doing?

I would be most interested in a local wreck called the Le Prince, which I know for sure is an abbreviated name. She's a French Corsair (like a Spanish Galleon, only French) that sank circa 1500's or 1600's in or around the Port Royal Sound near my home. She's rumored to be loaded with treasure.