Blue tang with possible MI

[Memo]

Lee
These photos are the best I can do I know it is not much. I had a chance to look at the spots with a magnifying glass and it is definitely a hole it is not protrusion. The ones on her face look like her pimples they are also holes not protrusions. Hope these photos are enough to make an educated guess.. You advised me to quit the copper should I keep the hyposalinity? Or should I slowly bump it up to normal level to see if MI comes back.
Thanks!

 

[leebca]

Please give us the background information so we have all the facts. Give info relative to the QT.

How old/when did you set up your QT tank? When did it originally cycle?
What kind of system do you have (tank volume, dimensions, bio-filtration method, the equipment you use, any carbon or other chemical filtration, kind of substrate, etc.).
Foods you use and feeding schedules -- if you are feeding an algae, what brand & what kind of algae;
So you've had this fish now for almost 3 weeks and your LFS held the fish for you for 3 weeks. Is this true?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, Silica, Ca, Alk., and any others you have)
Water parameters ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your QT: hair algae; micro algae;cyanobacteria growths; dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; colored patches on rock or substrate; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often). Kind of artificial salt youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re using. Kind of source water you are using? Have you analyzed your source water for the above chemistries? When did you do these tests last? What is the TDS of your source water?
Any other living things in the QT with this fish? List all.

I see some signs of MHLLE. In order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagallate
See this article for more info:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.htm

Make sure you read the above article. That rather large feature might be part of the MHLLE.

If you closely read that article, either you are coming closer to the proper diagnosis or you are still wondering -- and the answers to the above questions will help us consider more.

 

[Memo]

Hello Lee
First I would like to thank you for taking the time to help me with this predicament. These are the facts about the little girl. I saw her at the LFS at the end of December. However I had an angel in my QT at the time so I did not buy her. She looked fine but I always shyed away from Blue Tangs due to MI. However my daughter always wanted a Dori. (Thanks Nemo!) I weekly visited the LFS to see how she was doing. She looked happy and healthy in the tank did not rub and eat well, had good color minor MHLLE and had no spots or evidence of MI. Every time I go in to the LFS I looked at her and other fish in the display and displays on each side of her tank it to see if I can see problems with any of the fish due to cross contamination from the neighbor tanks. Everything looked well. My dealings with the LFS has been very honest, I or any of my friends had any problems with them. LFS saved me from making big mistakes at their loss by not selling me unnecessary equipment or livestock etc. I have been dealing with them for a long time, so it is safe to say they would not intentionally sell me sick fish. He did show me the signs of MHLLE but since it could be recovered by good diet I did not care too much. My main concern was MI free.That is the LFS side.
So after 4-5 weeks at LFS I brought her home on Feb 6th. I performed a 15 minute fresh water dip mixed with Methylene Blue. Placed her in a 5 gal hospital hyposalinity with Seachem Cupramine Copper level at about 15-20 mg/l.

To answer your Questions:

How old/when did you set up your QT tank? When did it originally cycle?
QT tank was set up that day it was cleaned and dry before. New batch of water was used to fill the tank that has been mixing for 3 days. (I planed ahead once) I keep a disposable filter at my main tanks sump for the Penguin BIO-Wheel Power Filter. I usually rip the corner and take all the carbon out. Filter has been in my main tank sump for 4-5 weeks. I always keep extra filter in there for just incase to use it as bio filter in QT. No MI in the main tank ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œKNOCK ON WOODââ"šÂ¬Ã‚

What kind of system do you have (tank volume, dimensions, bio-filtration method, the equipment you use, any carbon or other chemical filtration, kind of substrate, etc.).
QT tank is bare bottom 5gal, with heater set at 80F couple of PVC'c and Penguin BIO-Wheel Power Filter minus carbon.

Foods you use and feeding schedules -- if you are feeding an algae, what brand & what kind of algae;
I feed her 2 times a day with I mixed batch of Formula 1 and 2 flake together I feed that and Spectrum Saltwater Flakes with Garlic (MAIN INGREDIENTS: Fish Protein, Krill Protein, Wheat Flour, Allicin Complex Amino Acids, Spirulina Amino Acids, Carrot Extract, Wheat Gluten, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Soy Bean Meal, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal- Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin). Also every other day I feed her Ocean Nutrition Seaweed Selects Red marine Algae vith Vitamin C and she is eating well. Tried frozen food with selcon and Garlic but she did not like it. She must got use to flake from the LFS.

So you've had this fish now for almost 3 weeks and your LFS held the fish for you for 3 weeks. Is this true?
Yes more like 4 to 5 weeks at LFS and 19 days in hyposalinity QT with Copper.

Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Tried selcon vitamins and Garlic she did not like it. Flake has garlic and vitamins.

Chemistries ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, Silica, Ca, Alk., and any others you have) Water parameters ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Temp 79-80
Salinity: 1.009 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 1.010
Ph: 8.4
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0.1
Nitrate: 25
Phosphate: 0.2
Tested daily in the morning before feeding with Selifert test Kits. Checked dates on test kits all in order.
Copper: 0.15 - 0.20 mg/l
Tested daily 30-40 min after water change and addition of SeaCure with Fast test. Checked date on test kit it is OK.

Do you see any of the following in your QT: hair algae; micro algae;cyanobacteria growths; dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; colored patches on rock or substrate; etc.?
No. No rocks, bare bottom cheep glass tank. no growth, algae, nothing. Just white 2 PVC 90ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s and a heater

Water changes (how much and how often). Kind of artificial salt youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re using. Kind of source water you are using? Have you analyzed your source water for the above chemistries? When did you do these tests last? What is the TDS of your source water?
I perform daily water changes 25-50% depending on the QT tank condition. I use Instant ocean salt mix. I have 20 gal Rubbermaid with hyposalinity mix at approximately 1.009-1.010 salinity verified with Refractometer which I calibrate every time I set up a batch and add water. I top off the QT with this mix. Top off water is constantly mixing with external pump and airated. I daily test the QT tank for salinity and I monitor copper levels with Fast test as suggested by SeaCure. Copper level has been between 0.15-0.20 mostly on the higher side of the 0.15 of the color chart but not passed 0.20. Main water source is 5 stage RO with UV polish. Our drinking water. Constant monitored by sensors with counter. TDS is 0. If TDS parameters go up or any of the stages malfunction water is automatically cut off. (Kind of anal when it comes to my drinking water ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ No city water )

Any other living things in the QT with this fish? List all.
No just her.

Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition
Yes I will buy that although flake has some vitamins in it

Chronic Stress
Most definitely

Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think so. Daily 25% minimum water change. Maybe spikes after feed time. But I change water after night feeding.

Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
No Carbon in the system

Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?)
No internal motors external filter Penguin BIO-Wheel. It could be the heater. Canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t say 100 % no

I am puzzled to how she can get a spot after all this on the 16th day of the QT. What am I missing? I looked her over under magnifying glass (as best as I can see from the glass) and spots are definitely a hole it is not protrusion. The ones on her face look like her pimples they are also holes not protrusions. I canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t figure out what to do? I can tell she is getting stressed and I would like to put her in the main tank so she can swim but I am not willing to chance the other fish in the main tank. Thank you very much for taking the time to look at this. We do appreciate it. Specially our finned friend. I am certain she is overly stressed in that tinny tank. Any advice you can give us would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again!:wavehand: :wavehand:

Memo

 

[leebca]

First, let me say that there are few aquarists who would have this much concern and who would have gone to these lengths for their fish. You are the exact opposite of those who suggest that their sick fish should go untreated (even fish with Marine Ich like in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=784265)

For the above reason it is harder for me to chide you, but I will!

MHLLE is not well understood. You should not and do not want to buy a fish that has this condition. We honestly don't know for sure if we can cure MHLLE. For instance, what if MHLLE is caused by a microbe? See this posting: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=777473

I appreciate the trust you have in your LFS and I'm not implying your LFS is untrustworthy, but he did sell you a sick fish, intentionally with your approval, even though he and you may have legitamately believed the fish could recover. You both are in error.

Now, with that out of the way. . .There will be a risk that your tang will bring to your display tank the cause or causes of MHLLE, even if we address and cure that spot on your fish. What are you going to do about this? I'm saying that your fish may never make it to your display!

Going back to that spot. If you are convinced that there is nothing alive in that hole (fluke, worm, etc.) then it should be treated like a wound (although it could still be related to MHLLE).

First, improve the diet. Your fish has gotten into bad eating habits and now is the time to break them. Stop feeding it Formula 1. See my feeding recommendations for tangs in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=783832

I would monitor the hole(s) closely. If they get bigger or look worse, treat with an antibiotic. You should have one or two good antibiotics on hand now to be ready for this. My personal favorite is Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish because it has a penetrating characteristic and will enter inside the fish to kill offending bacteria.

I think this about the best I can do for you. If you have any more ? don't hesitate to ask. Good luck! :rollface:

 

[Memo]

Lee
Thanks for the input. I am concerned bacause I feel I bought this fish therefore someone removed it from their happy natural environment with that I took responsibility for this girl's well being and I am obligated to care for her best way that I possibly can. The only mistake fish made was being in the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught. Having said that this is my belief and may not be agreed by all. Some people think fish are only 40 bucks. Anyway! Different conversation.

Questions
Do we agree this fish has MHLLE not MI?
Is MHLLE is transmittable to other fish in the main tank?
Can MHLLE be safely battled in the display tank or need QT tank?
Can MHLLE kill fish?

This experience proves first line of defense is the correct diagnostics. So I potentially made it worse by putting her in copper. :furious: Thank you for the great advice and help. Off to battle with :strooper: :uzi: MHLLE.

Tanks! :wavehand: :wavehand:
Memo

 

[leebca]

Understood. Many an aquarist think they are 'saving' a fish from the LFS. But if the LFS suffers enough 'no sales' the LFS stops taking sick fish. Remember what we agreed to earlier; it is a commodity to them and if they can't get people like you (and suckers like me!) to buy their dying fishes, they will stop and either take better care of them or be more careful of the ones they themselves get.

I don't think it is MI.

We don't know. We think basically not; on the other hand it isn't unusual to see a whole tankful of fish where half are afflicted with what appears to be MHLLE.

There are IF's with this question. If the underlying cause of it is health and nutrition, the display tank should be okay. But we aren't that sure of what causes MHLLE. I hope this is clear to you? Because if the fish has it, and not in the display tank, and it could be a microbe involved, then I wouldn't want to infect my other fish with it, would I? But, it is unsure what causes it. Good nutrition and health seems to overcome it, but there are no guarantees.

Severe cases of MHLLE have killed fish. Some get so bad (have you seen those pictures in the article?) that they wither away.

If it were my tank, and no fish in my display showed signs of this condition, I would not add a fish with it.

Hang in there! :thumbsup:

 

[Memo]

Lee,
Thank you for valuable advice. Here is the game plan 75% water change and install carbon filter. Get rid of Copper. Bring salinity to normal levels by dripping over night and tomorrow. And I will transfer her to a 20gal. tank She will be a lonely fish until she gets better then hopefully main tank.
Thanks again for help.:wavehand:
Memo

 

[leebca]

Sounds like a plan. Raise salinity very slowly. I would not raise more than 0.004 sp. gr. per day.

You're welcome! :beer: