Building a sump/refugium... need some advice.

[ek9vboi]

Hey guys, I am planning on a DIY dump and refugium. I figure it will be a little bit cheaper then paying someone to make me a custom one. $235 shipped... thats without the lights, pump, etc.

Tank to be used is a AGA 25g. 24l x 12d x 20h
It will be set up in this order from left to right.
Left will be the return
Center will be the refugium
Right will be the overflow from the tank

Ovreflow Enternce: Over flow will come into a filter sock (might help cut down mircobubbles), I think 2 baffles after the overflow comes into the return with help cut down on the microbubbles for a little. The Remora AquaC skimmer will be also sitting in the same spot.

Refugium: It will have the usual, rocks and a DSB. Few critters running around down there. From there it will go through probably 3 or 4 baffles depending on space (cut down more microbubbles).

Return: The return will be housing either a MAG 5 or 7. Overhead return is aroun 4ft to 6ft due to the lack of space I have. I am not sure if I want to do a single return or a dual return. Or even if I should connect the returns to a SCWD wave maker I got back in the days.

Baffles will be about 1" away from each other. I HATE MICROBUBBLES!!! While running the sump level should be around 12-13"s high due to the fact that the skimmer is a HOB (I hate the sound of loud splashing water, I'll get use to it over time). There will be an auto top off later on when I can afford it, but till then its the old pour in.

Few questions:
1) Should I get a MAG 5 or 7? I know I can always turn down the pressure with the ballvalve.
2) Should I install bulkheads or just have the pipes/hoses run into and out of the sump/refuge?
3) How much space should I make available in the return section (don't want the return to run dry)? Same thing applies for refuge and overflow side.

I figure this project can't run me more then about 200 bucks with everything included. If anyone has parts I can use, such as an external overflow, ATO, etc... LMK.

 

[nyvp]

If you can buy most of the parts slightly used you can prob do it for even less. Go for the largest tank you can fit under your stand or where ever its going.

 

[bawla47]

good rule of thumb is 3-5x turnover in your sump, so whatever that might be, match your pump accordingly.
theres no sense getting a bigger pump if you dial it down alot, its still producing more heat and using more energy.

small pump will mean less flow in your sump also, which will reduce your microbubbles.

if your running a mag, no sense makin more work, i woudnt botehr with bulkheads and the such, just run them in your sump and run the pump submersible.

return section, if you plan on geting your auto top off very soon, then pretty small. 7". make your fuge the biggest as possible.

check out melevsreef.com he has a page on sumps with a whole bunch of different layouts, and also alot of great tips.

anyhow hths.
Jaymie

 

[ek9vboi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7512203#post7512203 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bawla47
good rule of thumb is 3-5x turnover in your sump, so whatever that might be, match your pump accordingly.

small pump will mean less flow in your sump also, which will reduce your microbubbles.

if your running a mag, no sense makin more work, i woudnt botehr with bulkheads and the such, just run them in your sump and run the pump submersible.

return section, if you plan on geting your auto top off very soon, then pretty small. 7". make your fuge the biggest as possible.

How would I go about figuring the turnover rate of my sump?

Its not the return that might give out mircobubbles, its rather the skimmer. The Remora skims great, but I always end up seeing microbubbles in my display tank when its on.

I need a bulkhead for the part where the overflow going into the sump because I will be using a flexable hose to run it from the external overflow to the sump. Plus I don't want it to be able to move around and so. I have carpet where this sump is going to sit, I rather have it secure due to the fact that it is a flexable hose. I know hard lines are ideal, but its in my preferrence.

Here is my diagram I was working on today. Any input would be great.

Keep in mind this was done before bawla47 posted

 

[Rogger Castells]

The 3-5x turnover rate that bawla mentions is simply calculated by your main tank water volume X 3-5 times if it is a 30gal tank then it will be between 90-150 gal/hr, pretty much a low turnover.
Now, back to your drawing, I would not put the refuge in the middle of the sump, if you do that you will have no control over the flow going through it and this is rather important when you are trying to have micro-life established and nutrient consumption from your macro, instead, I would place the refuge at the opposite side of the incoming line, I will use the middle compartment for my Protein Skimmer and return pump, this pump will have a tee of to the refuge from which you can regulate the flow you want to have in there, the refuge will overflow back into the second compartment. In this set up if you ever want to stop either the sump to clean something or the refuge you will still be able to run the other independently
As far of the microbubbles coming out of your skimmer, when was the last time that you took the skimmer out of the water to give it a good clean-up some vinegar soaking and some venturi valve cleaning? if the answer is more than 3 months ago or more, then you need to do this and let me know what happened when you connect the skimmer again

 

[ek9vboi]

Thats a good point Rogger.

For the turnover rating of 90-150, it wasn't what I had in mind. I would of some what like the return as the only water circulation device in the tank for a more cleaner tank. If needed more then most likely a modded MJ400 or Seio620. Would it be a bad thing if the turnover rate for the sump was a little higher? I might be using the SCWD wavemaker I bought way back.

As for the refuge being located towards the end of the tank instead of being centered. Sounds like a good idea and I might consider it. But wouldn't putting the skimmer in the area where the overflow is coming in be more ideal? It is after all, skimming the "dirty" water.

 

[Rogger Castells]

Yes, you can do that if you have the space, i would prefer to use that space for a 1 micron sock and or just any bigger debri catcher that can be easily removed and then the skimming.

 

[ek9vboi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7514058#post7514058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rogger Castells
Yes, you can do that if you have the space, i would prefer to use that space for a 1 micron sock and or just any bigger debri catcher that can be easily removed and then the skimming.

Yeah, I ordered up the filter sock already.

From what a few others have told me on RC, I think I am going to go with the way you said to set up the refugium, return, and overflow enternce.

Now, I have new question:

Since the return flow back into the tank will be around 150 after head loss, how much flow does the refugium need coming from the pump? (I will be using the "Calculators" on the RC website)

 

[Reliable1]

Where did you order the filter sock from? I am interested in purchasing one.

 

[bawla47]

the most IDEAL way of setting it up, is having your drain from the overflow, dump into a container that your skimmer feeds from, skimming the majority of your waste water from that container.

Or better is to directly feed your skimmer completely if possible. My overflow drain goes directly to a uniseal on the side of my skimmer.

Dr. Calfo has a HUGE thread on increasing your skimmers performance.
You can get as much as 1 cup of skimmate a day, apposed to once a week because your not just having your skimmer sit in your sump. so much gets bypassed from the skimmer that way.



filter socks are great, but its best if you ordered a few of them, to change them out, and youll need to change them every 3-4 days.

not tryin to bump heads, but give you a little more info, so you can decide whats best for you.

 

[Rogger Castells]

The refuge flow in each setup will be slightly dif. this is were the advantage of been able to play with the flow come handy, you can start with say 100 gal/hr and not faster than 500gal/hr tune it so you see good growth and it is not producing too high flow that nothing will be able to cling.
It will be nice if you do a small spray bar and place it half way (height) in your fuge wall further from the drain area, the idea is to have the most contact time, good water flow rate and healthy zooplankton thriving.
You will be playing witht the right flow until you get right, when you do, meassure the gal/hr and next time i would just be a matter of briging it to that level.
Good luck

 

[ek9vboi]

I was told by someone not to do a refugium. He said that a refugium is more orientated towards a tank with fish ONLY. He then went on to say that more people are taking out their refugiums due to problems in an established tank. I am a little confused now...

I thought a refugium can only help the tank, not just the fish! arg!!! Someone show me the light, I am not incompetent... just make sure I am doing this correct and properly. I hate doing things a second time and this tank will be with me even when I move to a new home. I'm hooked on reefs now.

 

[ek9vboi]

Idea # 1 has been thrown in the trash. Here is idea #2

Water will enter the tank from the overflow, then skimmed and pass through the baffles into the return section. In the return section, water will be pumped back into the tank and into the refugium. Both will have ballvalves to reduce or increase flow. The refugium water feed will have a spray bar and it will be aimed towards the back to the tank where the return and overflow sit. The refugium water will then overflow back into BOTH return and overflow enterence. The tank will hold about 20.6 gallons of water when in use, so that means there 5 gallons left incase something happens.

Any input welcome. I am working on another idea... will post it when im done.

 

[Rogger Castells]

Nice Drawings!

 

[ek9vboi]

I think its a decent sump/refugium but I'm not sure if I want the refugium water to both overflow back into the return and overflow feed. Plus the overflow from the refugium entering the return might cause bubbles. Its a nice sump/refugium... also a nice "2nd display" tank. I got the idea from another member, but just made it a little better.

Also, if I used glass baffles, do u think it will bow out or anything like that? I am working on a 3rd sump/refugium with the refugium, return and then the feed. Maybe that idea will turn out a little better.

 

[bawla47]

hey, dont listen to that guy about a refugium, hes not the brightest crayon in the box making a statement like that.

there is absolutely no drawback whatsoever from adding a refugium. It helps feed the tank(some pods and creatures) pulls nutrients from the water, and helps keep your ph up from photosysnthesis.

 

[bawla47]

im guessin you didnt check melevs site.

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

 

[ek9vboi]

I was thinking the same thing about what you said when I was told the refugium wasn't needed. That was the basic reason as to why I would go through all this trouble to make a sump/refugium.

As for melevsreef, I actually read through it a few times and got some ideas from him. His idea about the bubble box from where the overflow from the tank enters the sump makes a very good point. I was thinking about doing the same thing, but I have to think twice about it because I was planning to use a filter sock. Either way I would think both of them can help out when it comes to cutting down bubbles before returning into the return section.

 

[shadowman70]

This is an excellent thread .......Thanks for all the valuable information guys....

Rich

 

[Jon770]

Here are some pics from my fuge, which I FINALLY finished over the weekend. It's a 29G. Pretty simple/standard design:
RETURN <-- FUGE <-- SKIMMER

BTW: There are no bubbles at all from the Fuge to Return sections when running saltwater....the pic above is my test w/ fresh water from my hose.

Also, although it looks like there isn't much space left, there is MORE than enough room for backwash in the event of a power outage. I did the test and was pleased to see that I have tons space remaining after siphon-break.