Building Big Bertha: 800G

[Acrylics]

Hiya Ben,
My *guess* is that the Savko fittings should have 1/16" or a little over of slop & that's fine - no worries. I used the same hole sizes as for Hayward and the Haywards fit with a little wiggle which is how I want them to fit. Considering the gaskets are 3/8" or so wide, even 1/8" of wiggle is perfectly fine IMO. FWIW Hayward's gaskets are 1/2" wide on the 2" bulkhead fittings.

Jonathan,
Ben wanted the Savko Sch80 bulkheads so we drilled the bulkhead holes to the same spec as Haywards. For the 2" bulkheads, Hayward and Savko fittings use similar sized holes.

James

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9646129#post9646129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Acrylics
Hiya Ben,
My *guess* is that the Savko fittings should have 1/16" or a little over of slop & that's fine - no worries. I used the same hole sizes as for Hayward and the Haywards fit with a little wiggle which is how I want them to fit. Considering the gaskets are 3/8" or so wide, even 1/8" of wiggle is perfectly fine IMO. FWIW Hayward's gaskets are 1/2" wide on the 2" bulkhead fittings.

Jonathan,
Ben wanted the Savko Sch80 bulkheads so we drilled the bulkhead holes to the same spec as Haywards. For the 2" bulkheads, Hayward and Savko fittings use similar sized holes.

James

I think they have more slop than that... probably closer to 3/16" or 1/4", though I haven't measured it precisely. I am going to have to just drain the whole thing and let it dry completely and try again. I think part of my problem might be that the tank was still a little wet when I reassembled. The first time, I just slapped all four of them on there without even thinking about it, and every one of them was fine. The second time they were all leaking. I can see a couple of them... the water seeps up through the gasket/acrylic interface and goes right by the little ribs on the gaskets. Weird, huh?

I'll give it another go this evening and report back. (I will also sacrifice a gate valve or something to the plumbing gods beforehand.)

Ben

p.s. Yeah, Jonathan, the Savko BHs are distinct from the Hayward ones. Both seem high quality to me... but I dunno, no expert here. Next time I'll just get whatever James recommends. (That's for my 2400g tank in the next house, "next time," that is...)

 

[Bebo77]

Goodness... that is going to be something once you get it stocked....

makes me wish James had messesd up on the dimensions when he built my tank and sent me something your size.. darn it James.. why do you always have to get it right?:lol:

 

[Untamed12]

I also had a lot of threaded fitting problems, particularly around my pumps. I think the vibration makes them worse. Eventually, I had to invest into some very large wrenches to carefully....tighten my threaded fittings.

Even after they had been leak free for 2 months, as soon as I put SW in and heated the water leaks began to happen again.

My bigger problem started to happen as I tightened up all those threaded fittings....Pipes that used to be the correct length began to be too short. 1/8" here..1/8" there before you know it you've removed 1/2" of length and unions don't reach each other anymore.

I used Hayward bh's and they've given me no trouble. I installed them only hand tight, but I had someone push on the bulkhead from the inside of the tank in order to compress the foam just a bit. On the tank bottom bh's I had someone stand on the bulkhead, while I hand tightened from below.

 

[cbui2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9646217#post9646217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bbrantley
I think they have more slop than that... probably closer to 3/16" or 1/4", though I haven't measured it precisely. I am going to have to just drain the whole thing and let it dry completely and try again. I think part of my problem might be that the tank was still a little wet when I reassembled. The first time, I just slapped all four of them on there without even thinking about it, and every one of them was fine. The second time they were all leaking. I can see a couple of them... the water seeps up through the gasket/acrylic interface and goes right by the little ribs on the gaskets. Weird, huh?

I'll give it another go this evening and report back. (I will also sacrifice a gate valve or something to the plumbing gods beforehand.)

Ben

p.s. Yeah, Jonathan, the Savko BHs are distinct from the Hayward ones. Both seem high quality to me... but I dunno, no expert here. Next time I'll just get whatever James recommends. (That's for my 2400g tank in the next house, "next time," that is...)

hey ben sorry to hear the problems you are having but on my setup I went all hayward bulkhead since they are really heavy duty, and one person is needed for installation, also savko sells imported version if you ask the guy thats what I did before buying he told me that they get china to build them for him. yes both company have same hole cutout which is 3.25" for 2" bulkhead, I also bought the pink teflon tape instead of white which is thicker. water been sitting in my tank for about 10 days now and still no problems, and on my glass tanks which has about 1/8" gap with hayward bulks and no problems. also if you noticed the savko bulks have thinner thread on them vs hayward have more space and thicker, to my knowledge hayward is by far the best i have seen IMO.

 

[AquariumSpecialty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9647659#post9647659 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cbui2
hey ben sorry to hear the problems you are having but on my setup I went all hayward bulkhead since they are really heavy duty, and one person is needed for installation, also savko sells imported version if you ask the guy thats what I did before buying he told me that they get china to build them for him. yes both company have same hole cutout which is 3.25" for 2" bulkhead, I also bought the pink teflon tape instead of white which is thicker. water been sitting in my tank for about 10 days now and still no problems, and on my glass tanks which has about 1/8" gap with hayward bulks and no problems. also if you noticed the savko bulks have thinner thread on them vs hayward have more space and thicker, to my knowledge hayward is by far the best i have seen IMO.

I will have to agree. They are great for larger applications.

 

[H20ENG]

Ben,
If you need to self center the BH in the hole, wrap some electrical tape, teflon tape, (or narrow masking tape if your tank wall is thin) around the threads of the BH til it fits snug (not tight). The tape should not interfere with the nut or gasket so do account for the slight gasket compression.

BTW, most pump housings are molded with slightly larger threaded holes, so you really need to pile on the tape to get them to seal properly. Beware, though, with all the tape the fitting threads easily against the poly volute and you can crack the pump housing.
HTH,
Chris

 

[cbui2]

nobody wants to see $25k+ worth of equipments go down the drain because of switches, bulkheads, or even having to skip on some steps, but not the least modifying parts to make it work. this will not be acceptable in my system..just a thought ben if you have to take a lost on those bulks so be it. you'll have to get some more..you know some sacrifices has to be made to get her right and of course bertha requires alot of attention and care:rollface::mixed: . hope all the decision you make will be good..take care

 

[bbrantley]

Thank you all for of your recent suggestions, comments, and feedback! It is inspiring to have a small team of remote experts chiming in throughout the day. The internet is kewl.

Before I go to dreamland (sorry, Bart, I have to sleep each night -- weird, huh?), I thought I would catch you up on the latest adventures. They're still boring enough that I haven't taken any pictures yet... I'll do that when the leaks stop. Oops, did I just give away the punch line?

I spent a good chunk of my Bertha time today reworking the threaded joints that were leaking and trying to fix the bulkheads. Each time I reseated a bulkhead, I drained the sump enough to completely dry the surfaces, inside and out, where the bulkhead interfaces. I also took extra care to align the bulkhead and gasket perfectly. I did not try the tape-to-make-it-thicker technique, but that was only because I have such an easy grasp of both sides of the bulkhead in this particular shallow tank.

I don't know whether the drying part, the centering part, random luck, or some combination of all three made the difference, but I now I have all four bulkheads secured with no drips. Yet, anyway. Yay!

As for the threaded joints, I have learned based on people's comments here as well as more experience that

a) the Darts' female connectors are significantly bigger than most of the other parts I have, so they require significantly more tape than usual,

b) it's possible to have a bad fitting that just won't seal up, and so having an extra duplicate part lying around to try is a good idea, and

c) if the part screws in all the way, it's not taped up enough.

As of right now, I have one more leaking joint that is in category (c). Once I fix that guy, my little initial escapade into plumbing will be complete.

The next step will be to add in the skimmer, which necessitates a pair of gate valves connected to another of the overflow box's drains, some vinyl tubing, and a place to put the skimmer. To that end, I began construction on my ghetto skimmer stand this evening. It is puttied up and will be ready for sanding and paint in the morning, so I think it will be finished tomorrow evening. I will leave you in suspense as to the construction materials and mechanism upon which I finally decided... and, no, "putty and paint" does not give it away, really. :eek2:

Oh -- I almost forgot. I ordered 500 pounds of base rock today! Pics to come.

Ben

 

[jnarowe]

right on Ben!

Do you have to use vinyl tubing? I hate that stuff.

 

[cbui2]

the only thing I have vinyl tubing is for my skimmer waste going into the drain, glad to see all bulks not leaking, also on all my pumps I just apply more pink tape on there and maybe have them 3/4", I just didn't want to overtight them because tape might tend to tear also have to be roll on the same way you tighten them just to make sure that is done so no leaks. on my bulks I just center them myself and tighten them. been wanting to work on my baby for past couple days now but shop got so busy that I have not got a chance to work on her but hopefully soon...cant wait to make my order

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9652813#post9652813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
right on Ben!

Do you have to use vinyl tubing? I hate that stuff.

I'm not crazy about myself, but it's an easy call for preliminary placement. I need some time to learn how the skimmer reacts, what height is optimal, how it will change over time based on skimmate and protein load and whatnot. The output tube will free-flow back into the sump, but the input needs to be flexible for now so I can move it around. I'm also a little unsure about the exact positioning of the skimmer, so I'd rather reserve the right to shift it about.

Once I get it dialed in, if the tubing is presenting a problem, I will replace it will "hard" plumbing (regular PVC plus a little flex, I've decided, is the best choice).

Ben

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9659065#post9659065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cbui2
the only thing I have vinyl tubing is for my skimmer waste going into the drain, glad to see all bulks not leaking, also on all my pumps I just apply more pink tape on there and maybe have them 3/4", I just didn't want to overtight them because tape might tend to tear also have to be roll on the same way you tighten them just to make sure that is done so no leaks. on my bulks I just center them myself and tighten them. been wanting to work on my baby for past couple days now but shop got so busy that I have not got a chance to work on her but hopefully soon...cant wait to make my order

Maybe I need to find some of this pink tape. Can it be found at HD? I just saw the regular spools of white.

Ben

 

[bbrantley]

Well, time for a photo update.

First, I inventoried my remaining plumbing parts in preparation for my This Will Be My Last Order order...

...which I placed with a combination of Savko, AquaticEco, and Marine Depot tonight. I really hope I am done with the majority of the expensive plumbing pieces. I also bought several extra of all the cheap pieces and one each of the expensive pieces in case one blows up, breaks, or I realize I forgot something. I definitely have enough plumbing en route now to cover me for a while. I hope.

Here you can see the sump and the plumbing that I have been battling with for the past week. Doesn't look like much, huh? I now have drips on two of the threaded joints again, so I'm going to have to pull them off again and retape. <sigh>

The right-hand valve going to no where is where the second Dart will be connected. Dart 2 will provide flow to the refugium and prop tanks, and any extra will be diverted into Bertha. Sort of a backup pump and distribution pump in one. The middle 2" bulkhead is reserved in case I need an extra pump, but I'm thinking I will be fine... and I'd like to avoid taxing the sump with more flow anyway. I'm also quite worried that the sump may be a little too small... I have about 10 vertical inches of play left in the sump when it is running at minimum safe water height, and each inch is a little over 5 gallons. When the tank as plumbed right now drains down during an outage, I use up 4 of those precious inches. The other six will have to be enough to account for all the draindown from the much longer returns from the other tanks plus whatever the skimmer will dump out. It is going to be very close.

Here's an angle that shows the drains coming out of Bertha. [It's a little messy at the moment... try to disregard the cords, vinyl tubing, and crap everywhere. ] There is only one active one right now, and it seems quite capable of handling the 2000gph that the Dart is able to push through that flex sweep and three sharp right angles. The flow curve says 2400gph at 6 feet of head pressure, so this sounds about right to me. (It's also plenty of turnover for my purposes.)

The closer, again valve-to-no where is where I hope to install the gravity-fed drain to the skimmer. The theory will be to feed all of the return flow through the skimmer and, via a tee, down the sump via that closest drain. Then, the drain in the back will become an emergency drain. There is a third drain port in the middle there that is just a reserve in case it's needed one day. (Unlikely.)

 

[bbrantley]

...and these are some of the rocks! Marc at marcorocks.com did a great job picking out what I wanted (flatter, table-like pieces) and was quite the artist in setting them up for me to inspect prior to ordering. That's about 350-400 pounds; I have another 100-150 of a different kind of rock that's even flatter but less porous. I'll probably aquascape in a similar fashion, though I hope to create a few more outcrops and shaded areas. I'm pretty psyched about getting the rocks and getting to "play"... plus, it's impossible for rocks to leak! (Right?!)

I know you've all been in suspense wondering about my secret table design. No more:

The surprise is milk crate. Ha ha ha. I wanted a cheap way to build stands for my extra tanks, but it needed to be (a) easy, (b) resistant to saltwater on the floor, and (c) easy to get through the door. I think a treated wood top with milk crates underneath will work great. This one is my first effort, two hours of stabbing myself with drill bits in the freezing garage last night at midnight. I think it turned out fine. It's a little bit of a special design in that it doesn't have two sets of crates on either end, and it's only one crate tall. All intentional: the skimmer's position relative to the stand and other plumbing dictates the need to have a lot of clearance at the floor level, the skimmer's footprint itself is reasonably small, and the skimmer's center-of-mass is low and in the center. So, I put the stand here...

...and put the skimmer atop it like so:

Voila!

Ben

 

[20 20]

Try using teflon 'pipe dope' on your threaded fittings. I wrap the threads in a few rounds of teflon tape, and then slap on the pipe dope. No leaks when I did my tank. You can find it with the normal pvc stuff, teflon tape, etc.

 

[jnarowe]

Great pics Ben!

I really don't like the pink tape. It doesn't wrap very well and I get better results from taking a few more turns with the standard tape. Just to be square, when I built my system I asked about using threaded BHs etc. and was flatly told that they would be a PITA and that I should only use glued parts. I see by your experience that was good advice! I only have a couple threaded joints, and those are where there was no way to use glue and still be able to have enough pipe to cut and change.

 

[Untamed12]

It looks like you are really close to having a completely silent drain system (Herbie/Silent siphon). The gate valves suggest that you are. I hope that is in your plan. I'm running like that and I can testify that it makes a HUGE difference in noise, splashing and salt creep.

On the drain that is currently plumbed directly to the sump, you need to put a riser pipe inside the overflow box in order to make it work. You don't need that gate valve on that outlet...

I'll assume that you don't need any more explanation of this as I'm sure you've thought of it already. (you've thought of everything else). If you do, let me know and I'll elaborate.

I'm not sure about putting that much flow through the skimmer, though. In terms of total water volume, that skimmer isn't really that large, so the turnover is going to be extreme. I think you'll have to reduce that input somewhat. If you do that, and still want the silent overflows, you'll need to call upon that 3rd drain.

 

[bbrantley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9661117#post9661117 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Untamed12
It looks like you are really close to having a completely silent drain system (Herbie/Silent siphon). The gate valves suggest that you are. I hope that is in your plan. I'm running like that and I can testify that it makes a HUGE difference in noise, splashing and salt creep.

On the drain that is currently plumbed directly to the sump, you need to put a riser pipe inside the overflow box in order to make it work. You don't need that gate valve on that outlet...

I'll assume that you don't need any more explanation of this as I'm sure you've thought of it already. (you've thought of everything else). If you do, let me know and I'll elaborate.

I'm not sure about putting that much flow through the skimmer, though. In terms of total water volume, that skimmer isn't really that large, so the turnover is going to be extreme. I think you'll have to reduce that input somewhat. If you do that, and still want the silent overflows, you'll need to call upon that 3rd drain.

Yep, the goal all along has been to have the drains be completely silent. I figured out how to do that on my 225G (because I would have had to shut it down if I did not!), and it's so easy to do that I just had to do it for Bertha as well, even though the room is good enough at rejecting noise than I'm sure a Durso would be hard to hear on the other side anyway. And you're right, the GV on the back drain is theoretically unnecessary... but very convenient in this interstitial period. (The standpipe will go in once the real primary drain can be put to work.)

As for the skimmer flow, it needs to be roughly 500-700gph according to the BK experts. The skimmer input already has a valve for dialing it in, so what I need to do is tee the front drain to both it and the sump and put a (second) valve between the tee and the sump. Then I can hopefully adjust the primary drain's flow between the skimmer and sump by adjusting the ratio of the two valves. The concern I have right now is that I don't know how predictable the skimmer is with backpressure. In other words, if the skimmate head crashes (because of some oil in the water or whatever), does the skimmer end up taking more water (or less water?) and would that create a nasty imbalanced feedback loop? Also, if the skimmer shuts down (power failure, whatever), can it passively flow the 500-700gph that will still be feeding into it?

These things I have not tested, and I will have no good way to until I plumb to Bertha and try it. Moreover, sadly, some of them will have to wait until there is "real water" in the tank, as the skimmer won't do anything until it's salty in there. That may turn out to be a true adventure, but I'm kinda just hoping at this point that my theoretical concerns are just that -- theoretical.

Ben

 

[cbui2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9659245#post9659245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bbrantley
Maybe I need to find some of this pink tape. Can it be found at HD? I just saw the regular spools of white.

Ben

i get them at lowes, 3 wrap and that will do it for me, sweet looking rocks you have there, skimmer is nice too. thats alot of progress