But everyone does water changes...

Tu Ku

In Memoriam
After reading the better part of the threads on rc about doing water changes, and seeing the responses that these tanks never do water changes, ever, not even in 5 years in some cases. But that's not true, if you're replacing evaporated water then you're doing a water change. It might not be 10% every week, but it's close. My 55 evaporates almost a half of a gallon a day. Replacing that water daily means almost 5 gallons at the end of the week. By default everyone is doing a water change.

Show me a system that is sealed and never allows water out, and none in. Then that is a water changless tank.
 
your not taking the build up of what ever out of the tank. and your not replacing any lost minerals
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8898303#post8898303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goda
your not taking the build up of what ever out of the tank. and your not replacing any lost minerals

That first sentence doesn't make any sense. If you don't know "what ever" build up you're removing, then how do you even know that you are removing a build up of "what ever" out anyways. And of course you would still replace lost minerals.
 
Your skimmer is going to remove a good portion of those "harmful solids" so long as it's capacity is sufficient. Whatever they are, they won't be able to build up if your skimmer is constantly removing them. And since you're still replacing ample water from evaporation, you are replenishing trace minerals.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8898511#post8898511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tu Ku
Harmful solids of what? I'm anxious to understand why.
whatever solids you put in the aquarium (ie: whatever is in the water)
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8898543#post8898543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tu Ku
Your skimmer is going to remove a good portion of those "harmful solids" so long as it's capacity is sufficient. Whatever they are, they won't be able to build up if your skimmer is constantly removing them. And since you're still replacing ample water from evaporation, you are replenishing trace minerals.
I don't know what you're basing this post on. Have you seen the skimmer export study?
In most cases, kalkwasser alone (used as makeup water for evaporation) cannot keep up with the demand for calcium and alkalinity in a rapidly growing reef aquarium. RO, RO/DI and tapwater are all fairly devoid of any "trace minerals" you'd want in your reef aquarium- in fact, most tapwater sources contain contaminents that are deemed very undesirable. No artificial saltmix is perfect but they replace major and minor constituents of saltwater when you do a water change. Not so when adding topoff water. Apples and oranges: water changes remove and dilute while adding makeup water for evap merely adds to the accumulated contaminents... skimmer or no skimmer.
 
Agreed, that is certainly the difference. I'm sure that there is enough evidence to prove that both methods work equally as well. I do, however, understand now that systems which don't ever have replacements of water in the system are not performing water changes.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8898930#post8898930 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tu Ku
Agreed, that is certainly the difference. I'm sure that there is enough evidence to prove that both methods work equally as well.
actually, all evidence points to the contrary. I'm glad that you now understand some of the differences between a water change and adding top off water for evaporation.
 
Re: But everyone does water changes...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8898169#post8898169 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tu Ku
After reading the better part of the threads on rc about doing water changes, and seeing the responses that these tanks never do water changes, ever, not even in 5 years in some cases. But that's not true, if you're replacing evaporated water then you're doing a water change. It might not be 10% every week, but it's close. My 55 evaporates almost a half of a gallon a day. Replacing that water daily means almost 5 gallons at the end of the week. By default everyone is doing a water change.

Show me a system that is sealed and never allows water out, and none in. Then that is a water changless tank.

I have done that. Top sealed (not air tight though) No evaporation replaced for over two years. Very little water evaporated in that time. But others here are correct to point out that replacing evaporated water is NOT a water change. Excess organics will accumulate in a tank with no water changes in the form of algae growth unless it is also sealed for air. Water chemistry will be maintained, but eventually (after years) the tank will fill with algae because nitrogen and carbon will be taken out of the air to build it.

I kept a 20L reef tank as an almost closed system for 26 months. The experiment ended due to me moving. It was powered by a small pump that also pulled in air venturi style and a 65W compact fluorescent 10K light. The light was timed so that it was on for 14 hours a day. The top was covered with glass so that it was water-tight, but not airtight. I lost about 1/4 inch of water in over 2 years to evaporation.

This tank had no feeding and no water changes. The recycling of nutrients was accomplished by including a balanced assortment of plants and animals.

It had about 2 1/2 inches of aragonite gravel and maybe 20-25 lbs of live rock. There were originally 7 species of Caulerpa, 3 survived the entire period (Taxifolia, Racemosa, and Prolifera). The tank also had hair and bubble algae, as well as many micro-algaes. These micro-algaes were very heavily grazed by pods so they were not normally around in visible quantities. The side-glass would remain clear from micro-algae, but calcerous algae, tube worms, and other encrusting organisms grew on it in great numbers.

The large motile invertebrates were an emerald crab, a skunk cleaner shrimp, and 5 sand sifting snails. The cleaner shrimp died after about 8 months possibly to predation, the others survived the 26 months.

There were a great number of bristle worms, amphipods, isopods, copepods, tube worms, tube snails, tiny sponges, and other typical reef dwelling creatures. Aptasia were excluded.

Yellow button polyps, zooanthids, and mushroom polyps were included. The button polyps and zooanthids reproduced by cloning. The zooanthids grew in number from 6 to over 30. The mushroom polyps lived and grew a little, but did not split.

The top predators were a six-line wrasse, a picture dragonet, and an Atlantic pygmy angel. These fish were each about 2 inches long. All three fish were very fat and healthy but did not grow significantly larger in the 26 months of no food.
 
Harmful solids of what? I'm anxious to understand why.

There are many things that are removed or added in water changes (and not by replacing evaporated water) that most aquarists would agree is a useful thing. I discuss many of them in the article linked below. One big reason for doing them is to remove potentially toxic organics and certain other ions that cannot otherwise be removed.

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
 
Thanks for all of your responses. There was a time when I was doing regular water changes, and then the day when I quit doing regular water changes came. Suprisingly enough, it didn't make a difference. Two years void of water changes and the reef is doing great.
 
Tu Ku,

Do you have a calcium reactor, or are you dosing anything to support the reef?

Also, what corals/inverts do you have and what are there growth rates?

J
 
Not trying to be critical, but I looked at tank pictures in your gallery. Not much bio load and the inverts you have are not very demanding. Two years between water changes might work for you. However, I do not think you can use your experience to advocate not needing water changes. For those with large bio loads along with more demanding LPS and SPS water changes are essential.................IMHO.
 
I personally don't see anyone posting a pic of anything that would make me say ooh or ahh from a tank that hasn't had a water change in months, let alone years. Not doing them pretty much means your either really dumb, really lucky, or the perfect combination of the two.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8902402#post8902402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
There are many things that are removed or added in water changes (and not by replacing evaporated water) that most aquarists would agree is a useful thing. I discuss many of them in the article linked below. One big reason for doing them is to remove potentially toxic organics and certain other ions that cannot otherwise be removed.

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php


:lol: And the smackdown has landed. :hammer:
 
Tu Ku; I think you may still be missing the point. To over-simplify things, only pure water evaporates, so no "bad stuff" is exported during evaporation.

Many people are happy with water changes as a method of nutrient export. After all, what goes in (nutrient import/feeding), must come out (nutrient export/water changes). This however, isn't your only option, as there are more efficient methods of reducing and exporting "bad stuff".

Your first line of defense is assuring that you are not importing too much "stuff". This can be accomplished by rinsing frozen foods well, selection of "cleaner" foods, having a TDS reading of 0 with your source (top-off) water, and having a salt mix that has the right "stuff" in it.

The last one may be a hard one to fulfill, as recent studies have proven that salt mixes are not truly representative of natural sea water. Excess trace elements (heavy metals) often come from the water change itself. For this reason alone, water changes may be counterproductive in some cases.

There are many methods of nutrient export. I elect to use as many as possible, according to cost effectiveness and convenience. Water changes rank poorly in both of these categories, so I limit water changes to the amount of water that the protein skimmer removes and salt creep.

Some more efficient methods of nutrient export and reduction (assimilation & dissimilation) are protein skimming, the growth of macro algae & benthic invertebrates, ozonation, ultraviolet sterilization, molecular absorption (carbon, ion exchange resins, polymeric absorbents), livestock selection (xenia, snails, clams etc.), biological filtration (including deep sand beds) and mechanical filtration (cartridges, pads, manual removal). Any of these options will outperform water changes if properly executed.

If you have a problematic tank, poor husbandry practices, and/or don't properly implement the above methods, then water changes are quite necessary.

My experience has proven (to me) that even if the source water has a TDS of 0, and the salt mix is optimal, the reduction of nitrate and phosphate etc. is only marginal and fleeting with water changes.

If you change 10% of your water, then the "bad stuff" will be reduced by only 10%. Once phosphate is removed from the water, more bound phosphate will leach from calcareous media (calcium based rock and sand). Within hours, your original phosphate level returns, negating the water change efforts. Nitrate takes a little longer to return, but it will be back before the week is up in most cases.

You can counter this process by changing more water, but by the time your export catches up with the import, you're chasing your tail. You're better off focusing your resources on more cost effective technology and methodology.

The problem with water changes, is they act only as a bandaid. Excess "stuff" is a symptom of a poorly balanced system. I'm not saying that a perfect balance is an easy accomplishment, but a higher order ecosystem approach, with the right equipment and good husbandry practices will keep your hands out of the tank.

There is no evidence that marine aquariums have a deficit of trace elements, in fact the opposite is true. Water changes offer no significant "replenishment" aspect. Calcium reactors function very well in this role with very little operating cost or maintenance.

The most successful aquariums you will find, base their success on the delicate balance of livestock, not on the equipment or husbandry. The best equipment in the world won't help a system with poorly selected livestock. Invertebrates are capable of reducing any compound that accumulates in a reef aquarium. Some invertebrates like xenia can be harvested for profit and nutrient export.

There are many "natural" aquariums that rely solely on livestock for filtration, with only artificial lighting and pumps for water movement. Many aquarists have solved serious algae and pest problems through the addition or deletion of fish or invertebrates.

The simple addition of a sand sifting goby or cucumber can make a night and day difference in the cleanliness of the substrate. I've read many posts where the author has bent over backwards, doing daily water changes to solve this same problem, to no avail.

Chemical mishaps can be cleaned up through the use of binding or oxidizing chemicals like sodium thiosulphate or potassium permanganate, or through chemical filtration (carbon etc.). No need to stay up all night doing water changes, only to remove some of the offending chemical or medication.

Water changes have their time and place. Nano tanks function very well with major water changes because the cost and convenience is favorable. A 75%-100% weekly water change will save you the expense and space of a protein skimmer, chemical dosing, ozone, UV, refugia, benthic invertebrate culture, calcium reactor and a DSB. All you need is a pump, some carbon, and a bucket for the water changes. This model doesn't work for a large tank, as a 75%-100% water change isn't feasible.

There are some merits to water changes with aquariums up to 50 gallons as well. A couple of buckets can be changed without shocking the inhabitants or killing the coraline algae, due to UV exposure. The loss of coraline algae alone defeats the possible benefits of a water change. Coraline algae out-competes nuisance algae for nutrients and real estate. Turning the lights off during maintenance will eliminate the issue, but it introduces new visibility problems.

The efficient execution of water changes isn't an easy task. You have to match all of the water parameters, including PH and temperature, which takes time and space to achieve. most hobbyists, myself included, don't have the resources to store that much water or the patience to remove and add it in a non-injurious fashion.

As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Everyone is looking for something different from their aquarium. If you have a few fish and some undemanding corals, then obsessing over your (nitrate, phosphate, silicate, magnesium, calcium, Kh etc.) levels is counterproductive. If you have an interest in hard to keep SPS corals that require exacting lighting and water parameters, then you need to do a little more work, but it's a labor of love.

If you're enjoying your aquarium as it is, and there are no measurable differences with regular water changes executed, then you've answered your own question. If you want to increase your bioload, limit the number of times you have to wipe the glass, or increase coral growth and color, then try some of the other practices before resorting to water changes.
 
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Excellent advice mr. wilson! I've seen a supposed expert running 200 + aquariums in his home and store working his tail off unnecessarily because he refused to listen to this wisdom. He has always done it that way and was not going to change his mind. There is a time for water changes in my mind: when you’ve made a big mistake and need to fix it fast. If you really know what you are doing you won’t have to do any water changes. As for appearance, I don’t have a fancy camera but I think this 70 reef which uses no water changes is as good as any tank-of-the month. Also anyone who has seen the coral ponds at Inland Aquatics, which also use zero water changes, knows that they are in perfect condition.
 
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