butterflies: Disease or normalities?

[Lion-o]

So far, no changes. The two eaters are still eating and the other acts un enthused at eating time. Fish personalities are still the same, my biggest eater still "begs" when I enter the room. None of the fish are shy to humans.

In your experience, how long until the prazi takes effect and fish are "cured"? Wondering if I'll know if this helped or if I'll have to try other treatments next (cupramine?).

thanks,
danny

 

[snorvich]

So far, no changes. The two eaters are still eating and the other acts un enthused at eating time. Fish personalities are still the same, my biggest eater still "begs" when I enter the room. None of the fish are shy to humans.

In your experience, how long until the prazi takes effect and fish are "cured"? Wondering if I'll know if this helped or if I'll have to try other treatments next (cupramine?).

thanks,
danny

What are you treating for exactly? Using cupramine should be for treating a specific malady. For prazi, you will need two treatments, btw.

 

[Lion-o]

I see, I thought the second treatment was only if needed.

Right now I am treating for the possibility of flukes/internal problem that could be causing my fish to not want to eat. It is pretty close to impossible I think for me to determine exactly what my fish have since everything is so small the naked eye can't see it, or minor that it could be an issue or completely normal. Untrained eyes I'm going with the relatively safe treatments as I don't want a fish to die under my care for something that could have been treated!

Any input is welcome though.

 

[snorvich]

I see, I thought the second treatment was only if needed.

Because of "second generation" that hatched.

 

[Lion-o]

Interesting - will do.

In other news, I did call liveaquaria's customer service to ask them for any help and they gave me an extension on the warranty (without me asking).

Aside from that, not very helpful. I did find out that they do not necessarily pre-treat with copper, and they supposedly QT all fish before shipping them out. However, I can't be directed to the shipping facility itself which has the people I really want to talk to...

The lady on the phone sat there and read the testimonials from their website (I feed XYZ) and asked me if I was feeding them copepods. It was like dealing with my ISP support -- yes I have already restarted my modem and router. The problem is not on my end >_<

 

[Lion-o]

Have finished our first 7 days of treatment, did a 15g water change and placed carbon media back into the filter. Waiting and watching but not looking much better yet. How soon until we do a second round of treatment?

Heading to a new LFS store today to check it out, going to try and pick up some Formalin and Cupramine if they have it (just to have it on hand). Coming up on 3 weeks in QT this Wednesday. How long would you expect something like flukes or marine velvet to really "bloom" and become undeniable for diagnosis? I don't want it to get to that point, but such subtleties I am looking at and having a hard time with :\

thanks
danny

 

[snorvich]

Divers Den runs a non-therapeutic dosage of copper in their fish system along with ozone and UV but does not treat with copper. There is a difference. Divers Den acclimates but does not quarantine. They expressly recommend quarantining all fish.

 

[Lion-o]

Some progress! At the new LFS was able to pick up live brine shrimp (and a kit to produce more) as well as cupramine. No formalin though - not sure where to get that. BRS does not have it either - maybe this? http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Vet-Form...=UTF8&qid=1396225857&sr=8-1&keywords=formalin

Anyway, fed the live brine when we got home and butterfly #3 didnt go immediately for it, but we did later see him swim up and try out a few. Progress!

 

[snorvich]

Some progress! At the new LFS was able to pick up live brine shrimp (and a kit to produce more) as well as cupramine. No formalin though - not sure where to get that. BRS does not have it either - maybe this? http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Vet-Form...=UTF8&qid=1396225857&sr=8-1&keywords=formalin

Anyway, fed the live brine when we got home and butterfly #3 didnt go immediately for it, but we did later see him swim up and try out a few. Progress!

Does the new LFS have blackworms?

 

[Lion-o]

They might, I'm not sure as I wasn't looking for them.

I also picked up some frozen "angel & butterfly" food. It sounds like mostly the same ingredients as the stuff I feed them already, but thought I'd give it a try anyway.

Per my earlier question - how long before I should retreat with prazi?

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

I would take any carbon out of the system and administer the second dose of PraziPro right away.

 

[Lion-o]

Thanks. Wife took some updated photos - what do you think? Good enough to make a diagnosis?

Aside from eating habits behavior has been otherwise pretty much normal. The only thing I've noticed is that sometimes I catch him trying to "scratch" his face on surfaces in the tank (the rock or pvc).

 

[Lion-o]

Hey again,

Had a friend from the LFS that was able to stop by and give me a second opinion. Unfortunately, mostly just confirmed what I had already seen for myself. His thoughts were:

Not velvet as velvet is very rapid and the fish would have been dead already (they are almost 3 weeks in QT with me).

Not ich as even though we see a couple white specs here and there, they would be much more affected by now. Possible bacteria/fungal thing that shouldnt be very harmless (the white dots).

Doesn't look like flukes as he checked the eyes (apparently you can see them if you look at the right angle, in the light).

So, pretty much back to square 1 - possibly something internal, not sure what we're dealing with. Could also be a possibility of stress/malnutrition (from not eating). He suggested I try blood worms, and a blood worm feeder which floats at the surface and slowly releases them (gives that grazing like effect which makes sense). I picked some frozen bloodworms up and purchased the feeder on amazon. We'll see how it goes for dinner.

While he was over the one fish did exhibit what looked to be some flashing and itching around the gills. However, then proceeded to resume normal behavior for quite a while. We did see a white stringy object floating through the water (hungry fish was checking to see if he wanted to eat it) - which could have been poop and could have meant internal parasite.

He also suggested trying a freshwater dip to drop whatever might be itching in the gills... However he said that every time he has tried a freshwater dip on his fish, the fish has always died.

Any insights you guys have would be welcome This guy mostly focuses on coral (because of stuff like this), but definitely has way more experience and insight than i could offer on the situation. Hope it helps us towards resolution!

thanks,
danny

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

If it was my fish, I would give it a fresh water dip for 3-5 minutes (make sure to match ph and temperature to the QT water) and then run prazipro. If that didn't work to get the fish eating, I would try a broad spectrum antibiotic in 3 days.

I also would focus on getting the fish to eat live brine, live blackworms and chopped scallop and shrimp fresh from the grocery store. If the fish is going to eat, it probably will eat one of these foods. You can continue to try the bloodworms also, but I expect the fish is more likely to eat one of the other foods if it will eat.

I have never heard of someone having problems mixing prazipro and antibiotics, but let's hope others confirm.

 

[Lion-o]

This is actually the first I've been hearing of using blackworms. Are those standard marine foods? I looked it up and it sounded like a freshwater application.

Also, how small should the shrimp/scallop be chopped? When you say fresh I'm assuming you mean the "fresh" section as opposed to buying frozen and thawing it out?

thanks,
danny

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Many butterfly fish eat live blackworms even if they eat nothing else, so they are a go to food when nothing else works (along with live brine). Many fish eat worms in the wild. The blackworms thrash around when put in the tank and that may trigger a feeding response.

You are correct that they are a freshwater worm (so keep them in a small amount of Rodi water) and frequently are fed to freshwater fish. You should be able to buy a shot glass full for $2 or so. They die pretty quickly when put in saltwater.

Get your scallop and shrimp from the fresh seafood section of your grocery store. A couple of each will suffice for now. Rinse and blot dry. Hand chop with a chef knife. The fish will tear the pieces apart, although I would make sure to chop some bite - sized pieces to make it easy for the fish that isn't eating. I expect that your fish will be more attracted to the scallop if it eats, but you never know.

I use the chopped seafood as the main meaty food for my fish. I add salmon and clam to the chopped scallop and shrimp, mix well and freeze in ziploc bags. I pare off a heaping teaspoon full and toss it in the tank. All my fish eat it. 1/3 lb of each seafood lasts for months when fed once per day.

 

[Lion-o]

I am thinking I will go ahead with the fresh water dip and possibly tag on an antibiotic bath. Our PH test kit is expired so I'll look to pick up a new one tomorrow along with some pH buffer (if petsmart has it). Do you think a bath for antibiotic would be better, or putting it direct into the QT? I was thinking...

Catch fish, place into a bucket filled with saltwater.
1by1 remove and place into fw dip (3 minutes), place back into bucket.
1by1 remove and place into antibiotic dip (30s?), place back into QT.

Would this cause too much stress to the fish (too much at once?). The obvious problems are if something is living in the QT then they would get it again, but at least they would have temporary relief? Also, the two fish that are already eating could be at risk of unnecessary stress.

We tried the chopped shrimp/scallops today but none of the fish seemed really interested and it just sunk straight to the bottom of the tank. I will search for live blackworms this weekend.

 

[Lion-o]

Today I am learning about pH !

We are prepping a freshwater bath for our fish and have been trying to get the pH of our RODI water (and temperature) to match the tank as to not put the fish into shock. So, we added some buffer to the water then waited the approx 20 minutes for measuring, and got good values.

Waited another 20 minutes after that to see if our value was "true" or "steady" and sure enough the pH began to drop and the test color was surely different! Now I'm more worried about the freshwater bath!!

Is it OK to enter the fish while the pH matches (even if it is temporary and dropping?) or do we need to run an air stone and let it sit for a day or two before we know a true pH and it is safe for use?

thanks,
danny

 

[Lion-o]

Quick update: fw dip completed for 4 minutes on the fish. Nothing fell off, so not flukes.

Looks like all we succeeded in was scaring the little guy catching and such

Thinking tomorrow we will try and catch all 3 and give em a quick antibiotic bath.

 

[Lion-o]

Hi all,

It's been a while since my last update On 4/5 we did a pretty big water change, cleaned all the equip in the QT and did an antibiotic dip on all 3 fish to be safe. They all went through the treatment with no issues (no panicking or anything while in the meds). I've continued attempting feeding a variety of foods since then. Also, I did check and my LFS does not know of anyone that sells live black worms the state of Arizona.

Anyway, all three of my butterflies have decided they love frozen bloodworms. My biggest eats anything I throw in the tank but the two smaller ones have gotten to the point where they turn their nose up at anything except frozen bloodworms!! Even live mysis was ignored! They literally turn into a pack of hungry hyenas when i throw the worms in there (like I would expect from a healthy fish eating!) and come up to beg when we enter the room. I used to feed about 1/4th a cube per feeding, now i just drop a whole cube and it disappears before I can finish feeding my display tanks.

So, any suggestions how I could mix up their diet a little bit? I also bought a cone worm feeder but I'm not a huge fan of it as the biggest one kinda bullies the little guys when the food isn't quickly coming out of it ("MY CONE"). l am looking into different vitamin additives I could mix into their food, but I would also like them to get more variety.

I'm giving them a few more weeks (should be ~8 weeks total QT) before I add them to display, but all is looking good and I'm happy now that everyone is eating Whether or not internal parasites might have been an issue is unknown at this point... might have just been getting the hunger in them for the right type of food.