Can a fish be a carrier over and over again?

[ShellsSD]

This is a bit long winded but wanted to explain


I have a 150g FOWLR tank. Set the tank up in 09 - added fish slowly after a complete cycle. Then I added a zebra angelfish and within a couple days noticed he had white spots (Oh must be ick), garlic food, little FW dips when necessary, ugg was I wrong. Within a week all fish dead except Golden Spotted Rabbitfish.

Moved rabbitfish to hospital tank treated with medications for ick. Drained display tank, replaced water - let sit until all params were good (did not take long since I used water from my 180g reeftank) - moved rabbitfish back into display tank. Rabbitfish looked good except still had labored breathing (FYI - the rabbitfish never had white spots, that I could see, but did have the labored breathing)

After learning my lesson, set up QT tank and slowly bought new fish QT'ed for a few weeks then started adding fish to DT, slowly again. Rabbitfish in DT, eating great, swimming fine, no spots, but labored breathing. I assumed his gills must be damaged from before. Everything looked good - added about a fish a week until maybe the 4th fish was added. Butterfly came down with white spots, within a week, all fish dead except Rabbitfish.

Extensive research at this point and I believe velvet is the culprit. Moved Rabbitfish back to hospital tank (different than QT tank) treated him this time for velvet (still no outside spots or covering of velvet on him, but still labored breathing)

Left display tank sans fish for 8 weeks. About the 6th week trimmed some softies from my reef tank and put into FO display tank but NO FISH at all for 8weeks.

After the 8 weeks added back the rabbitfish (we are at the end of January 2010 now). Added some fish that had been in a QT tank during the 8 week wait. This week I noticed a fish with velvet covering once again. Pulled out all corals and invets and starting treating the DT with meds. As of this moring all fish dead except the rabbitfish and 4 chromis.

I am at wits end. Can the rabbitfish be a carrier?

At this point - I am thinking about taking everything out of the tank boiling the rock and sand and starting over.

Will this really work?

Should I put the rabbitfish and the chromis back in afterwards? I am thinking no, but then what to do with him.

If the rabbitfish still has labored breathing - is he still infected or are his gills damaged?

What would you do?

 

[Kieth71]

I am assuming you treated the rabbitfish with copper?Two weeks is not long enough to qt new fish either and did you proactivly treat the new fish as well or just observe?

 

[ShellsSD]

Rabbitfish was treated not only with copper but with quickcure also. New fish in qt about 20 days but first in hospital tank for a round of meds (prazi and cooper), so about a month + before being added to DT.

 

[Kieth71]

The only thing i can think is that the velvet survived your fallow period and was not long enough.Even for ich 8 weeks is minimum as far as i am concerned.I would say11 weeks to make sure.I understand your frustration though as it appears you have taken steps to prevent this from happening again.However regarding your original question if the rabbitfish was properly treated with copper and it was erradicted from the fish then he is clean.However if the tank you put him back into was not clean it could be he was reinfested and new fish which are more vunerable succumb to it.

 

[ShellsSD]

I never treated the DT with cooper. Now that I have all corals and inverts out should I treat the DT with cooper along with the rabbitfish and chromis inside it or just pull everything out and boil it, meanwhile putting the fish in the hospital tank.

what would be the surefire way to erraticate the velvet?

If I treat the DT with cooper for how long?

If the rabbitfish is still breathing hard does he still have velvet or are his lungs damaged?

 

[Kieth71]

I would not treat your display tank with copper.I am not sure why the rabbitfish is breathing hard other then you said all the other fish died from velvet so i am assuming he has it to even though he is surviving.Velvet will die on its own if left fallow long enough..maybe do a search and see if any others have gone through the same thing but i would for sure leave it longer then 8 weeks

 

[ShellsSD]

why would you not treat the DT?

 

[Kieth71]

I would not want copper in my main tank especially since it sounds like you keep corals and inverts.It can leach out of the live rock which absorbs it along with the sand i am assuming you have in the display.If you never plan to put the inverts and corals back go ahead but even then i am not sure why you would want to if you have a qt set up.If you are looking for drastic measures i would rather drain the tank and dry out the live rock and sand rather then treat with copper.However i would think a longer fallow period of 11-12 weeks would be sufficiant along with treating the remaining fish but its up to you.

 

[ShellsSD]

I had pulled all the corals and inverts out in preparation of tearing down the system to cook everything. Right now there is just live rock, sand, 4 chromis and rabbitfish. I see what you are saying about the live rock and sand leaching so tomorrow I will put fish in hospital tank with copper and cook the sand and live rock.

I will then clean the sump and DT and pray that this bugger is dead and gone!

Thanks for all your help Kieth.

I appreciate your time.

Shelly

 

[DJREEF]

Sadly, the fallow period for velvet is at least 16 weeks. That stuff is insidious and can encyst within the system for months. I've gone toe to toe with it 3 times in 26 years and, by the grace of God, lost to it only once - resulting in an entire tank wipeout. I can wholeheartedly attest to how incredibly difficult it is to kill this stuff. One treatment lasted 3 cycles over a 6 week period using 1.5 times the recommended dosage. I'm sure there are more new and modern meds for treating protozoan infestations, but for me the only thing that really worked was copper bombing the system. If you're going to make this a reef system, then concentrate on that for now and 86 the fish. Many months down the road try fish, but only with the protocols that you have in place now. Remember every time you jump the gun and move too quickly on this you'll set yourself back even further by letting those little bastards reentrench themselves.

DJ

 

[ShellsSD]

DJ, Thank you very much for posting. Please let me know what you did and what the results were on copper bombing your system.

This is not a reef tank it is a FO tank. I have another tank that is a 180 reef that has been set up for many years and I have many many years in the hobby, however I have no experience with velvet.

The intent of this tank if FO. The intent is also for a lion fish so inverts are not that important to me either.

Forgetting about corals and inverts - I want to do what is best way of erraticating this stupid bug.

For me I feel I have two options (+ your copper bombing after hearing your results) I just want people experience as to what will give me the best chance.

1. Pull fish out - put into hospital tank, flush entire system, cook live rock and sand - put this live rock and sand back in.

2. Pull fish out - put into hospital tank, flush entire system and just throw out live rock and sand - replace with new.

3. eager to hear about your copper bombing

I am debating on even putting these fish back into the system.

Please give me your input?

Anybody else please chime in also.

Thanks

Shelly

 

[DJREEF]

OK, now bear with me as I'm working from memory. My last bout with it was 12 years ago. Remember copper can be lethal to some fish at high doses, and in many ways represents a double edged sword. The fish I hit with the last treatment were angels, and they breezed through it. I basically maintained the copper levels using Cupramine dosed at separate times .7-.8 ppm for two 3 week cycles (recommended dose is .5ppm), with a week long gap between each cycle. You're gonna need a copper test kit that actually tests in .1 increments (Salifert reads in .5ppm increments, so wouldn't be accurate enough) because you can't go any higher than this without wiping everything out. OK, keep in mind sand and coral skeletons in your system are gonna soak the copper out of solution, thus you'll need to add additional Cupramine daily to maintain these levels. That also means you're going to have to test daily, maybe even a few times daily in the beginning, or at least long enough to get a feel for how the system is reacting to the dosing. It's a PIA, but necessary.

You're also going to have to watch the fish for signs of copper toxicity, in which case you'll have to back the dosage down until they can tolerate it. You'll simply have to run it for longer at a lower level (and pray).

Remove all chemical filtration media during the dose as this will pull the copper out before it has a chance to b effective. Polyfilters are great at removing copper as is GAC. I liked the Polyfilters because they actually turn blue as they pull the copper out. When they stop turning blue you know you've pulled the majority of it out of the bulk water.

OK, on a side note - if you have anything in the tank that is invertebrate and living (worms, pods, etc) they will be dead by the second day of this treatment which means your water quality will go south quickly, so water changes will be necessary to keep the chemistry straight. Copper will have to be added to the makeup water to compensate for the water removed from the system. The best possible scenario is to not have inverts in there at all. Also, copper treatments may suppress the normal biological function of your system, so ammonia, and nitrite levels may rise as nitrifying bacteria are suppressed. Good luck, and I hope this helps.

DJ

 

[ShellsSD]

DJ thanks can you please let me know if you had any ill effects from dosing your DT and the cooper leaching after time from your rock and sand?

I think at this point I am just going to pull everything out and cook it - sand and rock - then reset up the tank. I hope these little turkeys can't live through a boiling?

Thanks

 

[DJREEF]

No, I haven't had any LT problems. I've got all kinds of bugs and stuff living in the system, currently. I run polypads and GAC constant though, so I'm thinking if I were to have an incident with random leaching they would take care of it b4 any damage was done.

DJ

 

[ShellsSD]

DJ,

See that makes me wonder - if I "BOMB" the system (which would be the easier way to go), then run carbon (which I already do but not with copper) will I be fine down the road or do I get rid of the velvet only to have another problem with copper. Does not sound like I will have a problem with copper down the road from your experience.

I like the idea of polyfilters and being able to tell if it is still pulling out copper.

You have given me something to think about. Thanks

 

[DJREEF]

Anytime.

Yea, definitely weigh your options. Unfortunately, none of them are going to be very much fun .

DJ