Can an Apex controller control a doser?
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James77
Team RC
I wouldn't rely on a probe to dictate that in a tank. If the probe goes wacky for whatever reason, you could end up seriously overdosing on something. But it can use probes to turn things on or off, like if the pH gets too low, you could shut off a recotr. Or if the slainity drops too much, you could shut off top off.
Amoore311
New member
The short answer... yes it can.
The programming is not that simple though, as James77 touched on. You need to build fail-safe programming into you code to prevent a potential catastrophe if a probe goes bad or something like that.
The controller is only as smart as the person that programs it.
The programming is not that simple though, as James77 touched on. You need to build fail-safe programming into you code to prevent a potential catastrophe if a probe goes bad or something like that.
The controller is only as smart as the person that programs it.
5pacey
New member
Yes it can, as stated by previous posters. That said, there aren't that many probes out there that you can use for that purpose. This is not Apex specific, but just in general.
Basically we have the following probes available:
1. Temp
2. Ph
3. ORP
4. Conductivity
5. Oxygen Level (don't know who actually uses one, and costs $400 just for the probe).
There are no probes available, at this time, for:
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Calcium
Alkalinity
Phosphate
Magnesium
etc...
And generally you dose Calc & Alk or Calc & Alk & Mag... so there really is no way to detect those levels in an automated way and control dosing on that basis. You just have to check by "hand" and adjust the dosing regimen based on that.
Salinity (conductivity) is sort of similar, and there is a probe - so you can set up your ATO to run based on your salinity probe readings - I run this for example. I find this a lot more stable/reliable and just basic trustworthy than setting up the float switches and relying on water level. I am thinking about adding a float switch or two as backup protection but not as the primary triggers.
Spacey
Basically we have the following probes available:
1. Temp
2. Ph
3. ORP
4. Conductivity
5. Oxygen Level (don't know who actually uses one, and costs $400 just for the probe).
There are no probes available, at this time, for:
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Calcium
Alkalinity
Phosphate
Magnesium
etc...
And generally you dose Calc & Alk or Calc & Alk & Mag... so there really is no way to detect those levels in an automated way and control dosing on that basis. You just have to check by "hand" and adjust the dosing regimen based on that.
Salinity (conductivity) is sort of similar, and there is a probe - so you can set up your ATO to run based on your salinity probe readings - I run this for example. I find this a lot more stable/reliable and just basic trustworthy than setting up the float switches and relying on water level. I am thinking about adding a float switch or two as backup protection but not as the primary triggers.
Spacey
Others have covered the actual question well, but I just wanted to add something more philosophical, for lack of a better term. In my opinion, you shouldn't really do what you think you want to do. If some parameter of our tank is out of whack, there's usually a pretty good reason for it. It's a symptom of something that should be dealt with. Pouring in a chemical to make the symptom go away doesn't fix the problem.
Now if you're talking about 2-part dosing for calcium/alkalinity... that's a different story. Automating that makes sense. Even then, you're not dosing based on parameters, but based on total volume of solution you're supplying to the tank. So your controller is being used as an on/off timer to supply a certain volume of fluid, based on the time it takes to pump that fluid.
5pacey
New member
... that's true.... but that's only because there are no Calcium & Alk probes available (at least at a reasonable cost). So... you have to use the only information you have available - total volume of water in the system, concentration of the additive, beginning concentration of the chemical in the system and target concentration of chemical in the system. Based on that and measurements over time of the rate of consumption of the given chemical by your system, you can figure out how much of the concentrated additive you need to add per unit of time. Then you spread that out to minimize spikes and you get the dosing schedule.Imagine how cool and easy it would be if we had Calc / Alk / Mag probes! All you'd have to do is set your Apex to turn on the Doser for say Calc if it fell below say 1400 (or whatever the measure unit equivalent is), and off when concentration in the system went up to 1450. Calc concentration would be rock solid in the system (within 50 ppm roughly), and you wouldn't have to figure out how to set up what really is an arcane way to add chemicals to the system based on non-real time information.
My salinity, done that way, stays within 0.5 ppm based on my probe readings. I just make sure and spot test the water w/a refractometer once every few days to catch any calibration issues or deviations. For example the salinity readings are sensitive to the water temperature. If temp goes up or down by say 2 or 3 degrees you need to adjust the salinity reading correction factor. But... that's no big deal. And guess what...
I don't have to care what the water levels are... anywhere... Now... Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and phosphate are bit different. Adding chemicals to counteract abnormal levels for those is not a good idea because it is not removing the problem which caused them in the first place, like you said. That said... I'd still say that if you could monitor those params in real time, similarly to what we can do w/salinity or temp, and then have some emergency measures to halt a spike and raise an alarm it would definitely be valuable... you wouldn't want to just keep adding chemicals to cover up the abnormal concentrations for an extended period of time, but you would save some animals in the short term, buying yourself time to figure out what the problem is and deal w/it.
Spacey
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I'm in agreement with the responses above, but I would state it differently.
IMHO I think everyone is dancing around what I would call the "spirit" of your question...and the answer is NO you can't just automate dosing the way your thinking. As ahs been said, probes aren't available/affordable. Too many parameters are a balance of each other, so even if all the probes were available, if 1 to were go out of calibration, it may cause unnecessary dosing, which might throw off another parameter, and cause that to dose in error, which would further push the other param off, and so on, and so on, and so on...spiraling out of control.
Yes you can use a PH probe to adjust the flow of a calcium reactor, which turns off the CO2 if the PH drops to far. But from the OP it sounds like you're more asking about a calcium probe, to turn it on when the calcium is low, which cannot be done. Which is what I mean by "the spirit" of your question...and why I say the answer is no.
I would agree with Kurt_n and this is not something you would want to trust to a program. If you don't want to tackle the upkeep, I'd find a good tank maintenance person, and hire them. (this isn't a dig by any means, I can understand the attraction to doing this for some) At least then you still have the human mind watching and interpreting what's going on, which is very difficult to program.
IMHO I think everyone is dancing around what I would call the "spirit" of your question...and the answer is NO you can't just automate dosing the way your thinking. As ahs been said, probes aren't available/affordable. Too many parameters are a balance of each other, so even if all the probes were available, if 1 to were go out of calibration, it may cause unnecessary dosing, which might throw off another parameter, and cause that to dose in error, which would further push the other param off, and so on, and so on, and so on...spiraling out of control.
Yes you can use a PH probe to adjust the flow of a calcium reactor, which turns off the CO2 if the PH drops to far. But from the OP it sounds like you're more asking about a calcium probe, to turn it on when the calcium is low, which cannot be done. Which is what I mean by "the spirit" of your question...and why I say the answer is no.
I would agree with Kurt_n and this is not something you would want to trust to a program. If you don't want to tackle the upkeep, I'd find a good tank maintenance person, and hire them. (this isn't a dig by any means, I can understand the attraction to doing this for some) At least then you still have the human mind watching and interpreting what's going on, which is very difficult to program.
Like I said I am new to all this stuff and trying to figure everything out before I jump into it. But yes I was for the most part talking about doing this for a 2 part. Still trying to figure out exactly how that is done? If there are not probes for it how do you test for it? Do you just add "X" amount per day or what?
Also I wanted to get a at least a 3 unit doser, I was thinking about Calcium, Alkalinity and Magnesium, What else does everyone else use dosers for? Phosphate? I am not looking for an auto top off I am going to have an RO/DI system under my tank, i have plumbing behind it
and I will have flood sensors for a shut off for it.... So not worried about an auto top off will have a float switch for that. But what else do you guys uses dosers for and what probes are the most important to have? PH and Temp are the 2 main ones right? what else is worth it to get?
Also I wanted to get a at least a 3 unit doser, I was thinking about Calcium, Alkalinity and Magnesium, What else does everyone else use dosers for? Phosphate? I am not looking for an auto top off I am going to have an RO/DI system under my tank, i have plumbing behind it
and I will have flood sensors for a shut off for it.... So not worried about an auto top off will have a float switch for that. But what else do you guys uses dosers for and what probes are the most important to have? PH and Temp are the 2 main ones right? what else is worth it to get?There are calculators and such out there to help you with the how much to dose question, I went a slightly different route.
I set up my doser, to dose a smaller amount, and took measurements every day for what I was dosing...Alk, Cal, Mag, potassium. I raised the dosing each day until the levels stabilized and remained the same, then I knew I had it right. I check every now and then to make sure they are staying where I want them, and if anything changes as additions are made or corals grow.
Most don't dose Potassium, it's probably not necessary, but it's the 4th (I'm pretty sure it was 4th) largest element in NSW, so I figured keeping it where it should be can't hurt.
You definitely don't dose Phosphate.
Dosers don't have probes, you test for it with test kit's or, electronic testers like the Hanna checkers.
For the controller, pH and temp are the most popular, you'd have to decide, if you want to monitor, redox, salinty, or whatever else is available. Because pH varies throughout the day and night it's nice to monitor and see where it is throughout the day, Temp so you can use your controller to control , heaters, chillers, fans, and such.
HTH
I set up my doser, to dose a smaller amount, and took measurements every day for what I was dosing...Alk, Cal, Mag, potassium. I raised the dosing each day until the levels stabilized and remained the same, then I knew I had it right. I check every now and then to make sure they are staying where I want them, and if anything changes as additions are made or corals grow.
Most don't dose Potassium, it's probably not necessary, but it's the 4th (I'm pretty sure it was 4th) largest element in NSW, so I figured keeping it where it should be can't hurt.
You definitely don't dose Phosphate.
Dosers don't have probes, you test for it with test kit's or, electronic testers like the Hanna checkers.
For the controller, pH and temp are the most popular, you'd have to decide, if you want to monitor, redox, salinty, or whatever else is available. Because pH varies throughout the day and night it's nice to monitor and see where it is throughout the day, Temp so you can use your controller to control , heaters, chillers, fans, and such.
HTH
James77
Team RC
You use test kits like Salifert or Elos. You would test what your water is at, and use the reef chemistry calculator as Steved mentioned to correct your parameters to where you want. You usually then start dosing a "recommended" amount, like 1ml per gallon if it is SPS. After several days of doing that, you test the water again and see if it is high or low, and adjust accordingly.
Alternatively, you can correct your water,then retest it to be sure where it is at. Then wait one full day, and test again. You can use the difference between the 2 measurements and the reef chemistry calculator to get a rough idea how much your tank used.
The Apex doses based on an oscillating commang, very easy to set up. You basically state the on and off time. Like if you wanted to dose 2 minutes every hour, it would be " on 2 minutes" then "off 58 minutes".
James77
Team RC
James77
Team RC
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