Can fish have behavioral problems?

[jct996]

Hi. I'm new to the hobby and to Reef Central. Had a 220 gallon set up in my office a little over a year ago through a local company here. After multiple disasters with ich, velvet and a lot of dead fish I decided to start doing some research and providing some personal intervention instead of trusting the care of the tank to the local company. I have 3 questions (hope they're not too stupid...)

1.) Do I have to turn off my UV sterilizer if I'm treating the tank with medications?

2.) I have an Emperor Angel who has survived numerous doses of Cupramine (provided by the local fish company) as well as ich and velvet. He looks great (except for some facial scarring from Head Lateral Line Disease) but continues to scratch on a regular basis. He is also addicted to my four cleaner shrimp (2 skunk and 2 fire shrimps) who are constantly cleaning him when he's not eating. I think the shrimp are responsible for the occasional hemorrhaging to his tail and left pectoral fin. My question: is this simply behavioral or is he ill? I don't see any spots on him etc. Other than the constant scratching he seems fine.

3.) I also have a Regal Blue Tang who I think has marine ich. What's unusual is the number of spots never change (I thought they would with my understanding of the life cycle of ich.) He doesn't scratch (nor get cleaned by the shrimp the Emperor is spending all his time with) and his color, appetite and behavior seem fine for the past couple of months. I have been treating with Garlic and Metronidazole laced food, lower salinity at 1.018 ( which I know won't get rid of ich but I read somewhere it would help the fish expend less energy and tolerate illness better) and low doses of Malachite Green. (I found a reference suggesting a dose of .05mg/L every 2nd day. Unfortunately I don't know how long I am allowed to do this for. No one has died in the tank at least.) I'm not interested in using Copper since I don't have a quarantine tank, my tank is full of substrate, live rock and I'm convinced it has helped to kill a lot of my fish in the past.) Should I discontinue treatment? Could this be something else? (This tang has also survived multiple doses of Cupramine, as well as ich and velvet in the past. In the past he was acting sick though.)

Sorry if I seem long winded but the more I read the more confused I get. Not sure what else I should mention... (I just don't want any more disasters where all my fish die again... otherwise I'm gonna raise gold fish instead...)
-have approx 140 lbs of live rock
-sand/argonite bed is approx 4 inches deep
-temp is 78 degrees
-filtration includes a 70 gallon sump with bio balls
-all water parameters have been normal
-water changes are 25% every 2 weeks (performed by the local fish company) and 10% every 2 weeks alternating (performed by me) ie. some water is changed each week
-UV is off (more than 1 month now!)
-protein skimmer is off (more than 2 months now!)
-fish are fed frozen, flake, pelleted food and nori
-can provide a fish list if required (no fighting going on as far as I can tell)

Thanks everyone.

 

[Gargausius]

First of all stop with all the meds. I think the fish are getting stressed out. No more treatments on the fish you already have.

Second of all please list your water parameters. Don't assume or allow anyone else helping you assume your water parameters are "fine". That may be the other problem.

Hole in the Head is not deadly, it's just disfiguring. Think of it like fish acne. Try getting titanium ground probes to make sure there isn't any stray electricity getting in the tank. You'll know for sure if there's stray voltage when you get shocked everytime you put your hands in the water. Feed your fish a good diet, and the problem with Hole in the Head may go away.

 

[Swanwillow]

I agree- stop treating with meds... your fish scratching is indicating something is wrong, and it may just be over-medicating.

yes, I think a full fish list is needed... we won't be TOO bad at yelling at you, since it doesn't sound like you had good guidance from your hired help...

turn that skimmer and UV back on, get some carbon running to help take out the meds!!! are the meds being dosed in another tank? because cupramine has copper in it, which would kill your inverts-so I'm wondering if its really been cupramine thats been being used???

can you take pictures of the fish? it'll help with the HLLE advise, and the ich/velvet advice!!!!

 

[jct996]

Thanks for the prompt reply guys!
-I'll get you the water parameters later (they're recorded at the office)
-the copper use in the past killed a bunch of fish and all of my inverts in the past, I haven't allowed anyone to use it since (present inverts and a bunch of the present fish have been acquired since)
-fish in the tank include: Emperor Angel (adult), Regal Blue Tang, 2 Banner Fish, Coral Beauty, Flame Angel, Dragon Goby, Black Velvet Angel, Yellow Wrasse (Coris?), Fairy Wrasse, Zebra Moray, 2 Percula Clowns, 1 Royal Dottyback, Golden Butterfly
-sorry, can't send pictures (don't know how to...not too computer savvy)

Thanks again!

 

[Swanwillow]

other than having alot of big fish-if the water params check out, you may be ok... for awhile... Reminding myself its 220 gallons is a little better, but... it could be worse, and NO MORE, ok?

copper stays in the system in rock, sand, and even in the silicone sealing on a tank... are you SURE it was copper? or did you have this big of a bioload before?

I ask, because a spike in ammonia would kill off all but your hardiest fish. If they were telling you they were treating your tank, but really weren't=-sorry, I'm suspicious, because if it WAS a copper treatment, it would likely still be there. But, you could be lucky, ya never know!

if you have a digital camera, you can use a photo hosting site like photobucket, and download them pretty easily onto thier site, then just give us the URL, and we can have a peek.

 

[Gargausius]

From your fish list, I can say that you've got too many Angels in one tank. Even if the Angels are different species they don't always get along.

For instance, I've never been able to successfully keep Flame Angels with Coral Beauties. Black Velvet Angel (Centropyge nox?) is a sensitive Pygmy Angel and are more shy than the other two.

Out of curiosity, did your Zebra Moray live long enough to make your smaller fish a hearty meal? I notice that you've got fish small enough to fit into the eel's mouth (namely your Clowns and Royal Gramma, maybe the wrasses depending on how large they were)!

The commonly sold Yellow "Coris" Wrasse is not a real Coris. They belong to the genus Halichoeres. Unless you've got a fine sand substrate for it to dive into when stressed or sleeping, it could've been getting injured from coarse gravel.

Fairy Wrasses are relatively peaceful fish and can be intolerant of fish bullying it. I've never had too much success with Fairy Wrasses kept with the more aggressive Pygmy Angels (Coral Beauties or Flames). For some reason they kept picking on the Fairy Wrasses I've placed with them.

All Butterflies are sensitive fish. They don't tolerate drastic changes in water chemistry. They are also prone to parasitic infestations and other illnesses. Butterflies tend to be finicky feeders. The ones you had were the better of the bunch. They're still a pain to get feeding. Most Butterflies are corallivores to some degree or another. The ones you had were more forgiving in that they also ate a variety of other inverts.

Your Royal Gramma is a territorial fish.

Last but not least, I don't recommend keeping gobies with Wrasses or with a Zebra Moray Eel! Wrasses are very greedy feeders and are very quick to their meals. Gobies might be out- competed by the Wrasses. Zebra Morays will make Gobies into their next meal if they can catch them.

 

[Gargausius]

Oh yeah, if you had Percula Clowns that were wild caught, they're more difficult to keep than captive bred ones.

Wild caught Perculas tend to be more sensitive and come with parasites too.

Percula (Amphiprion ocellaris or A. percula) are the more sensitive Clowns of the bunch. They're not always recommended to beginners.

 

[Swanwillow]

come now: I said we wouldn't rip her apart too bad!!! and that list is what she has now, not what passed due to, well... whatever they did before to her tank.

Actually, that was nicely stated... he touched the things I didn't want to say, cause... well... we're going to try to help you. Really. But, some people are going to be VERY angry over your list of fish... what ^that was was a nice, pretty polite 'your an idiot' type of speech.

I dunno bout the clown thing: I had cinnamons, and I would have RATHER started with percs!!!! and she has a 4" sand bed for the wrasses, BIG PLUS!!!!

I think that the main way to get rid of the HLLE and the ich like spots, would be to reduce the amount of angels... there are locals near you I'm sure that would kill for an angel in thier tank!!! I'd prefer you get rid of the emperor, just because its the biggest, and the others can divvie out space in 220 gallons.

otherwise, its not TOO bad... you have alot of medium to large sized fish, but since its at an office... thats kinda what you want for PR, showy, flashy, stuff like that.

I put your list in order of biggest to smallest fish. My advice: get rid of two of the big fish (marked by 1's) and one or two medium (I'd prefer to see an angel or two gone out of that too!!!) and watch the moray for eating-you got lucky with that though, because zebras prefer to eat inverts=going to be eating your shrimp sooner rather than later... I'd dash that off the list too, if your keeping the shrimp!!! that way, you'll have the regal, the bannerfish, the butterfly, 2 angels, the goby, coris, the wrasse, clowns, and dottyback. smaller bioload, easier to care for!!! and it would get rid of the HLLE symptoms, and the other symptoms you've been seeing from stressed out fish

1 Zebra Moray,
1 Emperor Angel (adult),
1 Regal Blue Tang,
1 2 Banner Fish,
2 Golden Butterfly
2 Black Velvet Angel,
2 Coral Beauty,
2 Flame Angel,
2 Dragon Goby,
2 Yellow Wrasse (Coris?),
3 Fairy Wrasse,
3 2 Percula Clowns,
3 1 Royal Dottyback,

 

[jct996]

Hi guys. Still haven't had a chance to get you those water parameters. Probably later today or tomorrow. Just a few points:

-I know for sure they were using Cupramine in the tank previously
-the fish list I provided represents what is in the tank now
-the pygmy angels all get along fine and the Black Velvet will eat out of my hand and isn't shy
-no one bothers the fairy wrasse (who's bigger than the pigmy angels)
-the golden butterfly is always the first one ready to eat (it will eat anything including food from my hand)
-I thought a Royal Gramma and the Royal Dottyback (Bicolored Pseudochromis) were different fish although I hear they are both territorial (mine is only 2 inches long, smallest fish in the tank)
-the Percula Clowns were captive bred
-the Zebra Moray will only take shrimp (defrosted frozen raw shrimp from me by hand twice a week, the cleaner shrimp are usually all over him cleaning, including in his mouth, when the Emperor isn't with them)
-the yellow wrasse (?coris) does dive into the substrate frequently and looks perfect (I always wondered why diving never scratched him up etc...)
-only the Emperor has HLLE (left over from the last velvet disaster many months ago) and is the only one scratching
-only the Tang has the white spots (they are always there...)
-do I really have to get rid of the larger fish?

-finally, are you only helping out because you think I'm a woman or some damsel in distress? (just kidding, I'm male)

 

[Swanwillow]

oh, your a boy... sorry... haha

I'd only get rid of the fish listed cause thats ALOT of stress... I dunno, I'm throwing SOMETHING out...

heck, let the big guns with the big fish come in and shoot better than I. You can also go down to the fish only and agressive tanks forum and ask there-they'll beable to help ya a bit more, I suppose!

I'm only advising to get rid of a few angels, since like someone else said, they stress easily. I'm not worried bout the butterfly at all

and if you look at my posts, I reply to everything I think I can, and if I screw up in a reply, or can't help much more, I'll find the resources for you to help yourself.

thats why, the fish only forum may do you good: they deal alot more with angels, butterflies, and bigger fish than I do. I'm a seahorse keeper, ex mantis, lionfish, reef keeper. But I do a heck of alot of research, constantly, by helping on these forums...

you learn more when you teach the subject.

 

[jct996]

Hey thanks for all of your suggestions fish people! If you're still interested my tank parameters are:
-pH=8.2
-ammonia=0
-nitrites=0
-nitrates=10 (sorry, don't know the units)
-salinity=1.018
-temp=79
-hardness=170

As of today the skimmer and UV are back on and all of the medications have been discontinued. (I'm still giving garlic with their frozen food though.)

I'll give that fish only forum a try too. Thanks again for your help!

 

[Swanwillow]

salinity is a little low, but otherwise, glad your on the right track

we tend to try to keep the salinity at 1.025 NOT using the plastic swing-arm type: they aren't reliable...

 

[Gargausius]

I like my salinity at 1.025-1.027. All other water parameters are fine.

If you're saying you've got a Bicolor Dottyback (Pseudochromis paccagnellae) not a Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto), yeah they're two different fish. You're right they're both territorial. But not to the point where they will actively destroy every fish they see. That's all I really meant.

I agree with taking the three larger fish out of the tank, especially the Zebra Moray.

Try getting the titanium ground probes just in case, and I think that you've done all you can do really. If all the fish are feeding well and have plenty of space to get along, then I think you've got a good start.

 

[Swanwillow]

remember: it IS a 220 gallon tank.,.. the tang would be great in there, I just don't like the angel in there... with all the others. but, hes down in the aggressive forum now hopefully, getting more speciallized help!!!

 

[jct996]

Thanks again!