Can i get some advice treating in qt?

[wooden_reefer]

If you're worried about ammonia, Mr. Tusk's suggestion of "seeding" a foam/sponge for a HOB filter is a good one. I've QT'd multiple fish using this method many times. No ammonia. The Aqua Clear powerfilters are perfect for this, especially the 70 and 110 models with their large sponges.

It depends on what seeding means.

I don't see why cycling still appears to be a task to many people.

It is very easy and to avoid ammonia all together no matter what bioload is one should cycle the medium for QT. Do not use a vague term like "seeding".

"Cycle the medium for QT"--better, more definitely stated.

 

[HumbleFish]

It depends on what seeding means.

Seeding = Place the porous sponge, foam, rock or ceramic cylinders into either a high flow area of your sump or directly behind LR (already seeded with bacteria). In about a month, sufficient bacteria will have transferred to suffice as biological filtration in a QT environment. Running the "seeded" media via air pump works; but thru a powerfilter or canister is obviously a lot more efficient. Sponge/foam has the advantage over rock/ceramic cylinders, because it only absorbs minimal medication...

 

[MrTuskfish]

Seeding = Place the porous sponge, foam, rock or ceramic cylinders into either a high flow area of your sump or directly behind LR (already seeded with bacteria). In about a month, sufficient bacteria will have transferred to suffice as biological filtration in a QT environment. Running the "seeded" media via air pump works; but thru a powerfilter or canister is obviously a lot more efficient. Sponge/foam has the advantage over rock/ceramic cylinders, because it only absorbs minimal medication...

+1.....and a HOB filter is a great place for seeded media in the QT as well. It will help with circulation and surface turbulence for gas exchange. I've been using AquaClear HOB filters & sponges this way in my QT for many years (and hundreds of fish); works beautiful. Prior to Katrina, I had a couple of AC HOB filterers that ran non-stop (except for a move) for 20+ yrs.

 

[2FunKids]

Qt

Qt

Sounds good, I am on day 6 of a 14 day copper (cupramine) treatment and counting down to the PP treatment. Do fish need to be slowly acclimated back to a zero copper or can I do two 50% water changes to remove it?

.....Day 10, these are not the same fish I purchased, well they are but sure are feeling better. They are now eating like pigs, and practically begging me for food. What a difference between fish that are infected and ones on the mend.

So Based on what I have learned so far and because my LFS runs low copper and low salinity 1.017, there will always be a probable chance that I will get an infected fish because velvet could be suppressed..so, I am going to skip the TT method and go right to a dedicated QT Using seeded media. I will Start with PP as it is less invasive, then possibly on to Cupramine after 7 days unless I spot Velvet like I did. So, the next decision, Cupramine or no Cupramine without signs of infection? Without the Cupramine, I would guess I am up for a longer observation, but with it probably less time. I think what I am hearing is that the Velvet and Ich will show itself over the first couple of weeks..but that brings up another question...will PP suppress Velvet or Ich?

Based on all the feedback on this post it seems like this procedure is a pretty good summary of what we are discussing in this thread

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/quarantining-marine-fish-made-simple

This takes 21 days and I think it seems like most of what is being said in this post supports this procedure? Do any of you see any reason this wouldn't get me to a pretty good confidence level in a reasonable amount of time?

For sensitive fish I expect a long observation is the only way to go...

Again, thanks for all the support I really appreciate the opportunity to be involved discussions like this..I am learning.

 

[HumbleFish]

Sounds good, I am on day 6 of a 14 day copper (cupramine) treatment and counting down to the PP treatment. Do fish need to be slowly acclimated back to a zero copper or can I do two 50% water changes to remove it?

Some will consider this overkill, but I suggest you treat for one solid month in cupramine. You can remove by running carbon or using a poly filter pad. A WC (or two) before beginning PP is a good idea. You'll also need to do another WC in-between the two PP treatments.

So, the next decision, Cupramine or no Cupramine without signs of infection? Without the Cupramine, I would guess I am up for a longer observation, but with it probably less time. I think what I am hearing is that the Velvet and Ich will show itself over the first couple of weeks..but that brings up another question...

Velvet shows itself and is pretty obvious. With Ich, not so much. Sometimes Ich will invade just the gills and never show any visible symptoms on the skin. Of course, there should still be head twitching and rubbing, but that can sometimes be missed. For that reason it's best to prophylactically treat with cupramine IMO.

will PP suppress Velvet or Ich?

PP has no affect on Velvet or Ich. Only internal parasites/worms.

Based on all the feedback on this post it seems like this procedure is a pretty good summary of what we are discussing in this thread

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/quarantining-marine-fish-made-simple

This takes 21 days and I think it seems like most of what is being said in this post supports this procedure? Do any of you see any reason this wouldn't get me to a pretty good confidence level in a reasonable amount of time?

That guide covers the basics, but also makes some errors IMHO. For one, PP may be "safe" to use in conjunction with cupramine, but doing so hinders PP's effectiveness. Secondly, cupramine doesn't "take care of stubborn leftover flukes". Thirdly, Maracyn-2 isn't really a "broad spectrum antibiotic" as it only treats gram-negative infections. (Maracyn-1 covers gram-positive). I don't even think you can buy Maracyn 1 & 2 for s/w anymore. But you can use something like Furan-2.

Just my opinion, but 2 rounds of Prazi followed by one month in cupramine will cover most of the bases. Keep antibiotics on hand but only use as needed. Obviously, use cupramine first if you suspect Ich/Velvet. This QT protocol will last about 6 weeks, but better safe than sorry.

 

[2FunKids]

cupramine

cupramine

I am following the dosing time on the bottle of cupramine. If you are dosing it for thirty days perhaps you are not using the strength recommended on the bottle? In order to understand your recommendation can you elaborate on the strength and fish species that would be excluded or included for a month of Copper? I expect many fish may not make it a month at full dosage (5).

 

[HumbleFish]

I am following the dosing time on the bottle of cupramine. If you are dosing it for thirty days perhaps you are not using the strength recommended on the bottle? In order to understand your recommendation can you elaborate on the strength and fish species that would be excluded or included for a month of Copper? I expect many fish may not make it a month at full dosage (5).

Cupramine is effective at a lower concentration (0.35) than what following the instructions aims for (0.5). I got that info direct from Seachem's tech support. And while 2 weeks should be sufficient when Ich "plays by the rules" oftentimes it does not. In fact, here's a publication which talks about a strain in which "theronts were not released until 72 days after initial tomont formation". So, my suggestion of 30 days isn't even conservative enough to protect you from a strain like that.

The fish considered most sensitive to copper include angels, puffers and lions. But almost any species can have a negative reaction to it. The trick is to raise your copper slowly over the course of 3-5 days (cupramine's directions say to do it in 2). You'll usually notice appetite suppression long before it turns lethal. Prolonged appetite suppression in the presence of copper means you've encountered a fish that just can't handle it, and will need to be treated with an alternative method such as TT. Any fish that can handle 2 weeks of copper treatment can handle 4. IME, you don't enter the "danger zone" when it comes to copper unless you treat for more than 2 months.

 

[MrTuskfish]

cupramine is effective at a lower concentration (0.35) than what following the instructions aims for (0.5). I got that info direct from seachem's tech support. And while 2 weeks should be sufficient when ich "plays by the rules" oftentimes it does not. In fact, here's a publication which talks about a strain in which "theronts were not released until 72 days after initial tomont formation". So, my suggestion of 30 days isn't even conservative enough to protect you from a strain like that.

the fish considered most sensitive to copper include angels, puffers and lions. But almost any species can have a negative reaction to it. The trick is to raise your copper slowly over the course of 3-5 days (cupramine's directions say to do it in 2). You'll usually notice appetite suppression long before it turns lethal. Prolonged appetite suppression in the presence of copper means you've encountered a fish that just can't handle it, and will need to be treated with an alternative method such as tt. Any fish that can handle 2 weeks of copper treatment can handle 4. Ime, you don't enter the "danger zone" when it comes to copper unless you treat for more than 2 months.

+1

 

[2FunKids]

Qt

Qt

Thanks for the additional information. I scanned through the document and see the stats on the the normal life cycle..

"but an average parasite life cycle appears to be 1–2 weeks. However, because the time required until release of infective theronts after tomont formation varies so widely, prolonged treatment periods (3–6 weeks) are recommended. Longer treatment time may be necessary."

Without a published distribution curve it is difficult to really understand the probability. With 100% confidence I can say your recommendation is the "best" way to go for sure, I am not debating that or have any interest in questioning the advice I am seeking because I am the novice and I am the one seeking the help, so really, I appreciate all the advice. What I can do though is provide some understanding why a novice and 95% of others may not QT like I am and they are skipping the QT. It needs to be reasonable and not perceived by the novice as almost unobtainable due to the time and process. There has to be a point (I am guessing between 3-4 weeks) where the risk of re-infection due lack of QT time is equal to other factors that we may miss otherwise such as an immune fish carrier or cross contamination between the DT and QT. I guess the reality of the situation is, if you want to be sure...take the time...less time = more risk.

So my final thought is to do 10 days or so of PP, transition to Cupramine for another 3 + weeks depending on what is observed, then evaluate risk of introduction..IE, how many other fish am I risking...would I be in trouble if I had to pull all my fish out to treat them...do I have a big enough QT to do that and do I have filter media cycled and ready..
If it is a Tang or other disease prone fish = no risk. Wrass or a known resistant fish maybe less..Angle, maybe just a long observation..Am I doing ok?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Seeding = Place the porous sponge, foam, rock or ceramic cylinders into either a high flow area of your sump or directly behind LR (already seeded with bacteria). In about a month, sufficient bacteria will have transferred to suffice as biological filtration in a QT environment. Running the "seeded" media via air pump works; but thru a powerfilter or canister is obviously a lot more efficient. Sponge/foam has the advantage over rock/ceramic cylinders, because it only absorbs minimal medication...

I really do not think this is the rigorous best way, although there are significant marginal considerations that makes "seeding" work often enough.

1. This method just robs bacteria from DT for use in QT.

2. At any time after a while, the bacteria in DT is in balance with the bioload in DT, and are needed in the DT, not as spare.

The marginal considerations is that bioload consists not only of excretion by livestock that is a part of metabolism (which better not change), but also of decay from uneaten food and poops, which can change.

You can overfeed the livestock while you rob the DT of bacteria and then restrict feeding a bit.

This works if the added bioload is low in comparison to existing bioload.

Don't "seed" a medium from DT and use it to QT a large fish. This will lead to calamity.

The truth can be illustrated by extreme considerations. What is an immediate calamity in extreme case is often undersirable in usual case.

Even a moderate bioload can be exposed to ammonia if you just seed a medium in QT, which really is cycling with livestock.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I always cycle the medium for QT very well, not just seed it. There are two strong reasons for doing so.

1. I like to QT as many fish as I can find. Newbies don't try.

2. I always maintain such a medium a few months after the introduction of the last livestock of any remotely unceratin ich status. This is an effective contigency plan if ich were not eradicated. This is very very easy. Easier done then said. (after QT just put food in there every two weeks.) I have never have to use such a plan but I still maintain it.

Even the newbie may be forced into the same situation as QTing all fish at once if ich broke out after the tank is mostly stocked. A newbie has to learn about disease control very fast, the same work as QTing all fish at once by choice.

 

[HumbleFish]

So my final thought is to do 10 days or so of PP, transition to Cupramine for another 3 + weeks depending on what is observed, then evaluate risk of introduction..IE, how many other fish am I risking...would I be in trouble if I had to pull all my fish out to treat them...do I have a big enough QT to do that and do I have filter media cycled and ready..
If it is a Tang or other disease prone fish = no risk. Wrass or a known resistant fish maybe less..Angle, maybe just a long observation..Am I doing ok?

First, know that I'm completely sympathetic. I've been doing this for 30+ years, haven't always QT'd, got burned, etc. And yes, QT absolutely sucks! There's no bigger buzz kill than finding a beautiful, perfect looking fish, bringing him home, and then putting him in this ugly, bare bottom QT w/PVC fittings everywhere! But the alternative (fish dying and/or having to tear apart your DT to catch fish) is much worse. Been there, done that, never again.

I currently QT for 6-7 weeks total; 10 days of PP, followed by 4 weeks of either copper or CP. After all that, I observe for another week or so, and if the fish looks/eats/acts perfect then in the DT he goes. If something seems off, he stays in QT until it's fixed or he dies. Now, I do all that, and I still know I'm not 100% safe. But so far, so good.

 

[HumbleFish]

IE, how many other fish am I risking...would I be in trouble if I had to pull all my fish out to treat them...do I have a big enough QT to do that and do I have filter media cycled and ready..

OK, getting back to this... If I read thru your past posts correctly, you have a 110 gal DT and (2) 10 gal QTs? If you're planning on only purchasing small fish, then I'd say your QTs are fine. But if you plan on purchasing, say, tangs or medium sized fish, then you will want to upgrade to at least a 20-30 gal QT in the future. Unless it's a tiny, baby blue hippo or something, most tangs would go crazy in a 10 gal for a prolonged period of time.

If you ever had to pull all your fish out and treat, that would depend on how many fish were in your DT at the time. Right now with 3 small fish you'd be fine with just the 10 gals. But down the road??? FWIW, if you ever find yourself needing to treat a bunch of fish but don't have the tanks available to do it: You can always buy sterilite containers and do it in that. A HOB powerfilter fits perfectly on some of those.

 

[2FunKids]

qt

qt

Thanks for the gingerly pursuation...ok i guess i will keep hearing "Still no fish fish in there" Lol it will be worth it though. Thanks for the guidance.

Best Regards

Ray

 

[2FunKids]

OK, getting back to this... If I read thru your past posts correctly, you have a 110 gal DT and (2) 10 gal QTs? If you're planning on only purchasing small fish, then I'd say your QTs are fine. But if you plan on purchasing, say, tangs or medium sized fish, then you will want to upgrade to at least a 20-30 gal QT in the future. Unless it's a tiny, baby blue hippo or something, most tangs would go crazy in a 10 gal for a prolonged period of time.

If you ever had to pull all your fish out and treat, that would depend on how many fish were in your DT at the time. Right now with 3 small fish you'd be fine with just the 10 gals. But down the road??? FWIW, if you ever find yourself needing to treat a bunch of fish but don't have the tanks available to do it: You can always buy sterilite containers and do it in that. A HOB powerfilter fits perfectly on some of those.

You are correct and thanks, that is a good point obout using a temporary tub or something if I need to pull everything. I think I am going to watch CL for a used 29 or something and put a HOB on the back...If I am going to be adding fishes for the next year, I am going to set this up right. I plan to add a tang last.

I am sure this is answered somewhere but the PP and Cupramine will not kill the cycled bacteria? Or after a cupramine treatment do you then grab a new sponge from the DT fuge?

 

[HumbleFish]

I am sure this is answered somewhere but the PP and Cupramine will not kill the cycled bacteria?

No, it will not. Or at least not enough to make much of an impact.

Or after a cupramine treatment do you then grab a new sponge from the DT fuge?

I promise I don't work for Hagen, but give their Aquaclear powerfilters a look. They come in 4 different sizes and all come with these porous sponge inserts. You can buy replacement sponges cheap. I always have one or two down in my sump, ready to go. It takes about a month for enough bacteria to transfer onto the sponge. I toss the one I'm using when I'm done, but there's no reason why you couldn't reuse it. Unless your QT experienced a wipe-out from Typhoid Mary or something. :uhoh3:

 

[2FunKids]

qt

qt

I thought I would post my experiences so far on this QT for the first new fish for my 110 build. One Blue green chromis came with my used setup I purchased.

Well, the Golby is gone and here is what happened. I started with 4 fish from the LFS, Two percula's, one Royal Gamma and the Diamond Golby.

I had two methods I was debating on QT, One is a method using Prozi pro to start for the first seven days then Cupramine treatement and a second Prozi pro later used with the Cupramine. The other method is the TT method and that is the method I started with on these fish because I though...debated...no meds if they are ok should be better..?

Day 1, fish look good
Day 2, Fish are eating
Day 3, Still good
Day 4, did transfer and the Royal gamma feels confident enough to get out where I can see him....but...there is a problem, It is Velvet for sure..So I immediately started Cupramine after a quick PM. I observed that the Golby is not as active on day 4.
Day 5, I thought The Gamma was checking out, rapid breathing, mucus under gills. Observed Goby didn't eat today
Day 6 am, Royal Gamma is still around, golby seems to have swollen gills.
Day 6 pm, Golby is dead Back to fish store for refund.
Day 7 Tank Transfer and increased Cupramine to full dose.
Day 7 I see improvement in the Gamma but the clowns had a strange night up at the surface...Not sure if this is odd or not? Later am realizing they are still having this behavior at night.
Day 8 (yesterday), Everyone is much more active today and Velvet is visably gone. On the Gamma I had observed White mucus below gills, sheen above pectoral, gold patch on pectoral and a large sphere hanging below one gill. All this was gone now.
Day 9, today..I will keep you posted. I am thinking that I will still do tank transfer on day 13 to clear the infection at the stage where they are released from the fish. Will this help things? I have 4 weeks before I will be gone for spring break and I would like to observe the fish for a week in the DT before I leave.

Thanks for all the help...

Day 21 Fish are looking very good, much more energetic and on Prozi Pro.

 

[2FunKids]

Hi I am on my second group of fish in my QT. One Blue throat, 3 fire fish and one small yellow golby.

Problem number one...I had my sponge filters in my MD sump for a month before putting them in my qt and I am struggling to keep the ammonia down...it keeps creeping up to .5 within a week.

Granted I have been trying to get the Blue Throat to feed and Alas on day 10 he is eating a DYI fresh mix.

Also on day 10 I saw some whiting along the dorsal near the body and today I see spots but his fins are pretty transparent and around the spots they look milky 1mm around the spots. I am doing a 75% waterchange with DT water and planning on treating with Cupramine. Only the BT has the spots, not firefish not golby. On the Blue throat I first noticed that the leading dorsal bone in the dorsal fin had turned milky, next day some more spots. The QT is a 20 long with 17.5 Gallons.

Is this plan sound? I am slightly concerned with .25 - .5 ammonia when treating with cupramine?

Any suggestions... my problem is either over feeding the qt or the sponges do not have enough bacteria for the load.

Any advice, I am going to start the cupramine after the water change tonight..are any of these guys overly sensitive to Cupramine.