can you help me go skimmerless?

[spamreefnew]

anyone is free to pm me I would not say that i am an expert,,but,,I have done a lot with the scrubbers

 

[srusso]

Here are some upto date pics of my turf scrubber.

The one thing a regret from my scrubber design was that I put an extra ball valve (the lowest valve shown, that it turned off) so in case I needed to bypass the scrubber I could. It turns out I never do use the bypass and I believe I am losing some water pressure from the overflow. I should have used a L joint directly into the scrubber.

 

[skyshrimp]

Wow thaNks for all the helpful input guys. I just finished building my ats aNd it is connected to my drain from the display which is more than 500 gph because I am using a wp-500 from aquatraders so I'm hiding that is how much that drains. But just incase I need more flow I hooked up a maxijet 1200 for additionl flow. 150 watts on 1 side, i still need to buy another lamp or the other side. But is there I need to do?

 

[srusso]

What size screen did you make?
Did you follow all the directions on how to make one?
Please post of picture of your ATS and your tank, please.

 

[skyshrimp]

I wish I could post pics of my set up but I get on the net by my cell phone and when I try to upload pics to rc it always say uploads disabled. Unless anyone knows how to load pice to site from cell phone. My screen size is 10widex13long. Yes I follewed all the directions on making it from the ats site. Site is so friendly.

 

[thebanker]

Check out RC user "sanababit" and his tank. It's nicer than Marko Haaga's tank, IMO. He's growing SPS on a skimmerless ATS.

If you are going skimmerless, an ATS is almost 100% necessary because oxygenation could become an issue with a heavy bioload.

 

[Harry_Y]

I went skimmer-less a couple of months ago, so far so good

The corals seem happier, Time will tell.

I just started to give my skimmer a through cleaning to get it ready for storage

 

[srusso]

I went skimmer-less a couple of months ago, so far so good

The corals seem happier, Time will tell.

I just started to give my skimmer a through cleaning to get it ready for storage

ebay or craiglist is a great place to "store" it lol
heck even the RC threads here!

 

[skyshrimp]

So with me having a ats on my system i can successfully keep a mandarin beimg that it establishes a good copepod population? And at the same time it feeds the corals in my tank at a constant rate? Would I still have to doses anything on my system like mag , cal, alk?

 

[srusso]

So with me having a ats on my system i can successfully keep a mandarin beimg that it establishes a good copepod population? And at the same time it feeds the corals in my tank at a constant rate? Would I still have to doses anything on my system like mag , cal, alk?

You will always need to dose alk, mag and Cal, a long with others.

 

[spamreefnew]

give it time for the pod population to take hold (month or 2) and Always dose the big 3 CA,ALK,MAG. and many with ATS dose Iron

 

[skyshrimp]

Thanks I may need a bottle of iron being its 4 days an I see no growth but I just put lights in each side of th screen yesterday so maybe it will grow better

 

[srusso]

Thanks I may need a bottle of iron being its 4 days an I see no growth but I just put lights in each side of th screen yesterday so maybe it will grow better

Hold off on iron... I dont add any in my tank and never have. It maybe something you start doing in a month or two, but its still too early to tell.

Your first week you will see very little growth. Clean your screen after the seventh day anyway about 90% of all algae. Give it time, a well built ATS gets better every week. It will be very easy to clean the algae at first. Just use your hand and wipe the algae off under running water. After about 2-3 months I could no longer effectively remove the algae with just my hand, so I purchase a scrub brush you see in that picture. This seems to be doing the job for now. However I have spoken to people who have had their ATS for years and they say its better for them to use a blade of some sort, "shaving" the turf algae off each week. One thing that couldnt be more true is the older the screen the better it cleans.

I started this tank with an ATS, never used a skimmer and have never seen a bit of nitrate or phosphates. Zero... :inlove:

 

[jeff@zina.com]

I wanna give it a try but i need you all to help me step by step with the process so i dont crash my new set up.

Step 1: Don't put a skimmer on it.

That's it. The diversion into algae turf scrubbers is a bit silly because they don't replace a skimmer. They're just another method of nutrient export. Skimmers have a function, but there's no requirement to use them. You just need to adapt your process to account for what is no longer being handled by a skimmer. More frequent or larger water changes for example.

As for the huge range of beneficial critters you expect without a skimmer, having or not having a skimmer has no direct effect on that either.

Jeff

 

[srusso]

Step 1: Don't put a skimmer on it.

That's it. The diversion into algae turf scrubbers is a bit silly because they don't replace a skimmer. They're just another method of nutrient export. Skimmers have a function, but there's no requirement to use them. You just need to adapt your process to account for what is no longer being handled by a skimmer. More frequent or larger water changes for example.

As for the huge range of beneficial critters you expect without a skimmer, having or not having a skimmer has no direct effect on that either.

Jeff

I am sorry Jeff, but your "example" is a very wrong one. There are people with ATS that are going on 5+ years without water changes in FOWLR tanks. Small water changes are done on reef tanks that have ATS only to replenish trace elements.

Skimmers are posted as a "requirement" in a lot of places. Which is incorrect...

When you say:

The diversion into algae turf scrubbers is a bit silly because they don't replace a skimmer.

Your completely incorrect... that is 100% what they do, as well as replace GFO reactors, Phosphate reactors and my favorite joke of a method "vodka dosing" truly ridiculous! Some of the people on this forum need to take their tanks to AA!

In the end we should be seeking the most holistic method of keeping our tanks. Skimmers have become a way to make loads of money selling plastic cones to people for thousands of dollars. Then these same people make it gospel to have one.

I would encourage you and others to build an ATS, test it. Give it a good shot, and really hear what people (who aren't selling you anything) have to say.

 

[srusso]

Additionally, there are plenty of reasons for "business" to NOT want the algae turf scrubber to work.

1) Its almost free to build. (Mine cost me $15 in PVC and utility lights)
2) It grows its own "media" every week (no costly filters etc to continuously buy)
3) It reduces, (in some cases eliminates) the need for water changes (salt companies wont like that)
4) Companies have spent a lot of money in research to get skimmers to be as good as they can be. Of course to out "sell" the next guy.
5) Scrubbers remove ammonia, skimmers dont...
6) Companies who sell algaecide's and other chemicals to "correct tank issues"
7) pH Buffers of all types become useless
8) Companies also sell live pods and etc. (algae scrubber breeds millions daily)
9) ATS will work on both Fresh water and Saltwater tanks. With exception to planted tanks (ATS will out compete the plants for food)

The list can go on and on...

 

[jeff@zina.com]

Your completely incorrect... that is 100% what they do, as well as replace GFO reactors, Phosphate reactors and my favorite joke of a method "vodka dosing" truly ridiculous!

Not going to argue, but a turf scrubber does not replace a skimmer. Turf scrubbers work great for nutrient export. Skimmers don't do nutrient export anywhere close to what a turf scrubber does. But that's not all a skimmer does.

The process of foam fractionation collects nutrients in the form of dissolved and suspended organic wastes. It also collects suspended solids, including many heavy metals and other components of sea water. One of the reasons skimmers may increase the need for dosing. They do a relatively poor job of removing phosphates and nitrates. The reason many run GFO reactors, or dose Vodka.

Turf scrubbers on the other hand trap and remove phosphates and nitrates extremely well. They do very little for suspended organic waste since they provide, by design, relatively smooth flow through the plant material (algae). They also do nothing for other suspended elements and there is very little uptake of dissolved materials other than those used by the algae for growth.

The fact that a tank without a skimmer works fine with a turf scrubber is irrelevant of the presence, or lack thereof, of a skimmer. Scrubbers will work with or without a skimmer, except that a skimmer competes for some of the dissolved organic waste. There are many tanks that work without a skimmer or a turf scrubber. There are some that work with both.

I'm not bashing turf scrubbers, just that it's a mis-statement that they will replace a skimmer. They don't. For those that prefer a turf scrubber, I encourage them to use it. There are many paths to the same goal of water quality, use the path that works best for you.

By the way, you'll see a much wider adoption of turf scrubbers when there are viable commercial versions available. And they'll likely have a cost on the order of skimmers.

Jeff

 

[srusso]

Not going to argue, but a turf scrubber does not replace a skimmer. Turf scrubbers work great for nutrient export. Skimmers don't do nutrient export anywhere close to what a turf scrubber does. But that's not all a skimmer does.

The process of foam fractionation collects nutrients in the form of dissolved and suspended organic wastes. It also collects suspended solids, including many heavy metals and other components of sea water. One of the reasons skimmers may increase the need for dosing. They do a relatively poor job of removing phosphates and nitrates. The reason many run GFO reactors, or dose Vodka.

Turf scrubbers on the other hand trap and remove phosphates and nitrates extremely well. They do very little for suspended organic waste since they provide, by design, relatively smooth flow through the plant material (algae). They also do nothing for other suspended elements and there is very little uptake of dissolved materials other than those used by the algae for growth.

The fact that a tank without a skimmer works fine with a turf scrubber is irrelevant of the presence, or lack thereof, of a skimmer. Scrubbers will work with or without a skimmer, except that a skimmer competes for some of the dissolved organic waste. There are many tanks that work without a skimmer or a turf scrubber. There are some that work with both.

I'm not bashing turf scrubbers, just that it's a mis-statement that they will replace a skimmer. They don't. For those that prefer a turf scrubber, I encourage them to use it. There are many paths to the same goal of water quality, use the path that works best for you.

By the way, you'll see a much wider adoption of turf scrubbers when there are viable commercial versions available. And they'll likely have a cost on the order of skimmers.

Jeff

I would not like to argue either. Just like to help control the mis-information about algae scrubbers. No algae scrubbers in that sense do not "replace" skimmer. Skimmer like you said use foam fractionation and scrubbers absorb. In this way they do differ, however when the term "replace" is used for a more general term. This is true b/c both have a similar end result. Cleanse water... Therefore in that way a skimmer can be replaced by a scrubber.

Algae does absorb heavy metals and other toxins as well.We all know this to be true b/c water treatment facilities have been using algae turf scrubbers to cleanse water of toxins since the early 70's. Again please dont spread mis-information about algae. It is a wonderful natural cleaner and is how the ocean has "really" cleaned the water since the beginning of time. Not the waves, like pro-skimmer people like to believe. The one thing the waves have done is aid the algae in bringing their food to them. Since this is not a problem in our small systems the waves are not needed. So no foam fractionation is needed...

 

[spamreefnew]

I don' want to get in the middle of this but one big reason for me getting into scrubbers is that I don't buy the "wave action is natures skimmer" thing

1. most of the foam goes right into the soil and is washed back into the water
2. To "skim" the entire ocean I would think that every mile of shoreline would have to be covered in foam 1 mile thick 27/7
3. nobody removes the foam

+1 on both methods will get you a great looking reef tank with different pros and cons, the scrubber method just has more on the pro side for me

 

[apt220]

Just to add one more thing, proponents of algae scrubbers argue that removal of "dissolved and suspended organic wastes" via a protein skimmer = removal of coral food from the water column, which is true.