Can't keep fish alive PLS HELP!

[mwatson187]

Hi,

Im relatively new to the hobby and I've been hitting quite a few rough patches I have a 24g nano cube and ive been through about 6 fish now, 1 of which have survived. I started at the end of december and have been doing 25% water changes once a month and just rinsed out one of my sponge filters today. My water parameters have been consistently at:

ammonia - 0
nitrate - 10
nitrite - 0
alkalinity - 300
pH - 7.8
gravity - 1.023

I have some mushroom corals and about 8-9 lbs of live rock. I bought a green chromis first (the one which has survived) and then an ocellaris (died from ich). Then purchased an emerald crab (still alive) and a sleeper goby (died from unknown causes). Then bought another ocellaris (ich) and a firefish (ich). The most recent really bothered me because it was a tank raised ocellaris which survived for 3 weeks, normal behavior, eating very well and then out of the blue his respiration increased. Then he showed signs of a bacterial infection and lost his color. I tried to use melafix, but to no avail. I've talked to two LFS owners and neither can give me any real answer. One said that it's kinda a dice roll and that sometimes even though my parameters are perfect, my fish will still die (i don't want to roll the dice for 15 bucks per fish). The other owner says that I just need to wait for 2 more months and let my tank mature more. Is there any truth to either set of advice? I'm really at a loss here. I'm being patient and very careful about this and every new fish dies, aside from the chromis obviously.

so....ya.....please help me

 

[woogy]

I would raise the SG to about 1.026 slowly. pH is kind of low too. Are you testing this with a meter or test kit? Also what are you using to check SG...a refractometer or hydrometer?

 

[mwatson187]

I have a hydrometer for the SG. My LFS used a refractometer to test my water once and it's about .002 higher on the refractometer, so I believe my true SG is about 1.025 but I'm not positive on that number that's why I gave my hydrometer's reading. As for the other tests, I use the quick dip test strips.

 

[mutateddogbone]

what kind of water did you use? what are your steps for acclimating fish? what is the temp. of your tank? need some details about your setup

 

[RyanDragon]

get a new test kits,, the quick dip test strips are ok for freshwater but it's inaccurate to use to test saltwater...

 

[Playa-1]

[Size=2.5]To Reef Central[/Size]

Hi mwatson,
A couple of things jump out at me. The Alk reading that you posted doesn't make sense. The pH at 7.8 is a bit of a red flag too. Temp is not listed and you also have to be mindful of daily swings in the parameters, such as temp and pH. The first step is to get accurate water parameter readings and make sure that the parameters are in line.

I suspect that your in the process of learning a hard lesson on Acclimation and Quarantine. Parasites and disease run amuck within this hobby. A proper Acclimation and Quarantine program is required to keep the disease and parasites out of your display tank. Check out this link and pay special attention to the Acclimation and Quarantine section.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074

Here's some additional links that you might find useful.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

 

[mwatson187]

I used tap water then used TetraAqua's Aquasafe to dechlorinate the water. My temp is at 78 because I was told a higher temp helps kill the parasites that cause ich. As for acclimation, I put the bag in the tank for about 30 minutes so the temp evens out. Then discard about half of the water. Then every 5 minutes for another 30-45 minutes, I add in about a 1/4 cup of tank water. After that, I net the fish and put him in the tank. I know to be completely on the safe side I should QT him for a couple days, but I don't have a setup for a QT tank.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14712826#post14712826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanDragon
get a new test kits,, the quick dip test strips are ok for freshwater but it's inaccurate to use to test saltwater...

Ryan, is there any particular brand you would recommend for testkits? Also how much do they generally run?

 

[woogy]

get an reverse osmosis unit. This will be the best investment you can make. The filter guys are a sponser on here. Give them a call and they will help you pick out a unit.

Test kits I would recommend API which are on the cheaper end and salifert if you got some dough.

Also look into the drip acclimation for acclimating the fish.

 

[RyanDragon]

I agreed with woogy,,, API are cheaper test kits and they seem to be decently accurate,,, but like woogy said,, if u have more money to spend then u can get salifert.. remember u get wat u pay for..

 

[Playa-1]

The QT thang is something that many of us have to learn the hard way. Some people will learn from other peoples mistakes and save themselves lots of time and money, not to mention the poor little fishies lives. Then other people like you and me have to learn this lesson the hard way. It's an expensive lesson in many ways but it's not one that you will ever forget.

 

[mwatson187]

I've read over lots of slow acclimation and qt posts in many different forums and have tried to be very careful with my acclimation process. I'm still unsure if either of those things are truly the cause of my fishes' deaths. The first couple survived for about a week each, this past one survived for 3 weeks, and the chromis is still kickin. I have acclimated all of my fish the same way, why am I getting varying lifetimes in my tank? Also, if they are stressed out from my acclimation method, then why do they act normal for as long as 3 weeks and then just randomly fall ill so quickly that I can't do anything about it? I'm really open to suggestions and am completely prepared to be told that I'm wrong about this stuff, but I've been doing things right to the best of my knowledge and I keep getting screwed If my acclimation is REALLY the issue and a QT tank is required for me to have a fish survive, what would be the bare bones cheapest way to make a qt tank? I really don't have a whole lot of money to be making an extra tank, but I know that in the long run it's cheaper than buying fish that are just going to die in a week.

 

[Playa-1]

You've got a few issues going on there. As previously stated the first step is to get accurate water parameter readings. Stop adding livestock to the DT. Also get a temp and pH reading from early am and late afternoon to get an idea of the pH and temp swing that you have in the tank.

You need an accurate ALK reading.

Are you using a Protein Skimmer?

Are you dosing anything to the tank?

I've read over lots of slow acclimation and qt posts in many different forums and have tried to be very careful with my acclimation process.
Your acclimation process seems just fine but I would recommend that you acclimate the new arrivals to a QT instead of the DT.

why am I getting varying lifetimes in my tank?
There are many different factors involved as well as many different causes of death. Since you have no QT program in place you have no way of knowing what disease or parasite has been introduced into your tank.

Once you have accurate water parameter measurements and have ruled out crazy temp, pH, ALK and o2 swings then you will want to remove any fish in the tank and allow the tank to run fallow for 6 to 8 weeks. This should break the life cycle of the parasites that have been introduced into the tank. Another option is to completely break the tank down, sterilize everything and start from scratch. Both methods are a Royal Pain in the Arse and by now you should be starting to get an idea of why it's important to use a good Acclimation and QT program to prevent this problem in the future.

A simple QT is a 20 gallon food safe container or maybe a used 20 gallon tank purchased locally. If you're a good shopper you may find a used tank with lots of accessories such as heater, air stones, thermometers, etc...

Heater $20
Thermometer $4
Ammonia indicator $3
Sponge filter $5
Misc PVC fitting for shelter $2

The tank can be broken down and stored when it's not in use. You will also need a way to monitor/adjust pH and keep Ammonia in check. Regular water changes along with a seeded sponge filter works well. Some people use Ammonia binders in the mix to make their life easier.

All my fish receive 6 weeks in the QT which includes a fresh water dip, 10 days of PraziPro, 4 weeks of HypoSalinity.

 

[Playa-1]

I should add that any fish that are currently in the tank should be removed and put through the QT program while your DT is running fallow for 6 to 8 weeks.

 

[dwd5813]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14716357#post14716357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Playa-1
I should add that any fish that are currently in the tank should be removed and put through the QT program while your DT is running fallow for 6 to 8 weeks.

this is what i was thinking while reading the op. i missed it if you said, but how long between additions did you wait? the first thing that came to mind when you said each progressive fish died from ich is that you didn't qt or wait long enough in between additions. at this stage, you know ich is present in your tank and the most effective way to take care of that is to remove all of it's potential hosts and let the ich in the tank run it's course. this takes, on average, the 6 to 8 weeks Playa mentioned.

 

[mwatson187]

I've been using the quick dip test strips for my alk reading, so I guess I don't know what an accurate reading would be. What sort of testing equipment would you recommend I use to get a proper reading? I am not using a protein skimmer nor am I dosing the tank with anything. As for how long in between adding livestock, it was about 2 weeks in between each and sometimes shorter which now makes sense as to why they would get ich after the previous one died. I only have a chromis and an emerald crab left, could the chromis be a carrier of ich and not be sick? If so, why isn't he getting sick? And why hasn't ich run its course since he's been in there for 4 months which is way over the 6-8 week period that ich runs?

In regards to the qt tank setup...
Heater $20
Thermometer $4
Ammonia indicator $3
Sponge filter $5
Misc PVC fitting for shelter $2

what is the purpose of purchasing an ammonia indicator if I have a test kit? Does it do something else better than testing can? What is the pvc pipe for? Also, what would be my source of new o2? Would that be included with the sponge filter?

Sorry if these questions seem silly, but I am clearly doing something wrong and I want to figure out exactly what it is so I can fix it. Mistakes are pointless if you can't learn anything from them. Thanks again for the helpful information guys :]

 

[woogy]

the ammonia indicator is just quick way of letting you know if there is ammonia in the tank but I guess so are the quick dip test strips. I never had any experience with either to tell you whether which one is accurate. As for the PVC pipe that is for shelter for the fish.

 

[dwd5813]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14717544#post14717544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwatson187
And why hasn't ich run its course since he's been in there for 4 months which is way over the 6-8 week period that ich runs?

cause that 6-8 period is the time it takes to go through the cycle of stages ich runs through WITHOUT a host. there's a cyst stage, a free swimming stage, and a hosting stage. if there is a fish in the tank the ich can complete the cycle and it will continue. without one, the host stage can't happen and the ich eventually dies off.

 

[Playa-1]

The Ammonia indicator is a visual indicator that will quickly tell you if you have a problem in the tank with Ammonia. Other wise you can test it daily with a Test kit.

I would look into API or Salifert test kits and follow the directions to get accurate information on your Alk.

It's possible that the remaining fish is acting as a host for parasites. It is thought that some strong and healthy fish are able to build up a tolerance to certain parasites but that they can still be a host for a portion of the parasites life cycle. This enables the parasite to survive until a more suitable victim happens along. If you do a google search on the ICH life cycle you may get a better understanding of how it works.

A Protein Skimmer is the best way to aerate the DT. The sponge filter along with regular water changes should take care of the QT.

If you get a chance, pick up a copy of "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner. It will go along way in helping you to get past the initial learning curve.