check this article out!!
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gflat65
New member
Interesting discussion.
Isn't what humans do instinct, too? I know this is stretching it a bit, but we do a lot of the same behaviors they do, just in a vastly different environment. Look to tribes that haven't had much interference from the outside world and you'll see alot of the basic elements seen in other animals. Now they don't have as large a brain or a brain that functions at all like ours, but I think they still form bonds (hence a pecking order-chain of bonds of varying degrees), etc. Not sure how convinced I am myself, but I might have to vote for feelings, too. This would be based on my relationship with Shakes the Clown (the WSM I've had for 10 years). Long story(ies) short, she didn't start viciously attacking me until I figured out how to time a thump to her nose as she was charging me. It was all out war after that first time. Kinda like when, as a dumb child, you're a little rough with your dog or smack it a little too hard out of frustration when disciplining it or what not and the dog would be skittish around you for a while-we raised dogs growing up...). Over a long period of time, she quit attacking me altogether and I've haven't tried the nose thump in a while. During the bad times, she would attack from six feet away anytime my hand entered the tank. Kinda straddles the fence of survival vs. memory, but memory vs. survival has its own fence (chicken or egg
).
Isn't what humans do instinct, too? I know this is stretching it a bit, but we do a lot of the same behaviors they do, just in a vastly different environment. Look to tribes that haven't had much interference from the outside world and you'll see alot of the basic elements seen in other animals. Now they don't have as large a brain or a brain that functions at all like ours, but I think they still form bonds (hence a pecking order-chain of bonds of varying degrees), etc. Not sure how convinced I am myself, but I might have to vote for feelings, too. This would be based on my relationship with Shakes the Clown (the WSM I've had for 10 years). Long story(ies) short, she didn't start viciously attacking me until I figured out how to time a thump to her nose as she was charging me. It was all out war after that first time. Kinda like when, as a dumb child, you're a little rough with your dog or smack it a little too hard out of frustration when disciplining it or what not and the dog would be skittish around you for a while-we raised dogs growing up...). Over a long period of time, she quit attacking me altogether and I've haven't tried the nose thump in a while. During the bad times, she would attack from six feet away anytime my hand entered the tank. Kinda straddles the fence of survival vs. memory, but memory vs. survival has its own fence (chicken or egg
).
KAiNE
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9235134#post9235134 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
Interesting discussion.
Isn't what humans do instinct, too? I know this is stretching it a bit, but we do a lot of the same behaviors they do, just in a vastly different environment. Look to tribes that haven't had much interference from the outside world and you'll see alot of the basic elements seen in other animals. Now they don't have as large a brain or a brain that functions at all like ours, but I think they still form bonds (hence a pecking order-chain of bonds of varying degrees), etc. Not sure how convinced I am myself, but I might have to vote for feelings, too. This would be based on my relationship with Shakes the Clown (the WSM I've had for 10 years). Long story(ies) short, she didn't start viciously attacking me until I figured out how to time a thump to her nose as she was charging me. It was all out war after that first time. Kinda like when, as a dumb child, you're a little rough with your dog or smack it a little too hard out of frustration when disciplining it or what not and the dog would be skittish around you for a while-we raised dogs growing up...). Over a long period of time, she quit attacking me altogether and I've haven't tried the nose thump in a while. During the bad times, she would attack from six feet away anytime my hand entered the tank. Kinda straddles the fence of survival vs. memory, but memory vs. survival has its own fence (chicken or egg
I agree..
The dog has instinct too but yet when my wife leaves she lays by the front door and wont eat till she gets home, is that instinct?
I have instincts too.... but we wont talk about that here...
When a butterfly fish's mate dies and it dies soon after, is that instinct or something else?
Intelligence is not always "black and white" and it cant be narrowed down to what only humans do (thinking about how things suck, where should I got tomorrow, I wish I had a better job, boy my coloration sucks, I wish this dude would put me back in the ocean, etc.) because if that were true it would be a human, not a fish.
In no way are fish or really any other animal on the same level as humans but they are on a level all their own. To say outright that they dont "feel", narrows the definition of the term to the point that some humans dont fit. If we move to "memory"... I had a pair of wolf cichlids that were extremely interactive. One weekend my brother fed them while i was out of town and from then on they hated him.... would almost jump out when he came in the room, dumping a ton of water on the floor in the process. What did he do? I dont know but they were fine with him prior so your guess in as good as mine.
Octopi... now there is an intelligent animal (smartest invert). Maze and problem-solving experiments have shown that they have both short- and long-term memory. In some countries octopuses are on the list of experimental animals on which surgery may not be performed without anesthesia. In the UK, cephalopods such as octopuses are regarded as honorary vertebrates under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and other cruelty to animals legislation, extending to them protections not normally afforded to invertebrates.
I guess it all boils down to how you define terms in question.
Unfortunately the sad part of this hobby isnt the fish that are generally well cared for by most that visit this forum. I would say they are similar to a cat. Forced to live inside but overall destined to have a longer life because of our care and protection (as long as the proper species and types are kept in appropriate sized tanks). The sad part is all the fish that are sold and are doomed from the start by places that sell marine life that can't even keep it alive themselves.
We have every right IMO to own an animal but with that right comes a tremendous responsibility to give it the best life we can and make sure it doesn't suffer unnecessarily. Of course many animals that people own have no buisness in captivity or are owned by people who are incapable of taking care of them. It's just as bad with birds and reptiles and mammals as it is with fish.
Unfortunately PETA is a really good idea that has really gone wrong. Those people are living in their own little world and reality and common sense don't play much of a role there.
FWIW we had the central nervous system in the first part of anatomy this semester and we have a dolphin brain preserved by plastination....I bet it's pretty close to the size of yours
....lots of the increased size is because of their echolocaton abilities but still...much larger than a dog or horses brain.
All JMO
Chris
We have every right IMO to own an animal but with that right comes a tremendous responsibility to give it the best life we can and make sure it doesn't suffer unnecessarily. Of course many animals that people own have no buisness in captivity or are owned by people who are incapable of taking care of them. It's just as bad with birds and reptiles and mammals as it is with fish.
Unfortunately PETA is a really good idea that has really gone wrong. Those people are living in their own little world and reality and common sense don't play much of a role there.
FWIW we had the central nervous system in the first part of anatomy this semester and we have a dolphin brain preserved by plastination....I bet it's pretty close to the size of yours
....lots of the increased size is because of their echolocaton abilities but still...much larger than a dog or horses brain.
All JMO
Chris
I think most of what humans do leaves the realm of instinct after infancy. Human babies can swim when born but lose this ability, and have to learn it again. At infancy most of what humans do is instinct, much like a simple animal. It is our ability to learn new things that sets us apart, and makes up dangerous. Of course its a mixed bag, some animals are taught to hunt... Hmmm...
I think Peta might be right after thinking this thru, anyone want to buy a kick but setup?
I think Peta might be right after thinking this thru, anyone want to buy a kick but setup?
gflat65
New member
But doesn't instinct drive the mother to feed her baby to get it through infancy so it can continue the parents line? There is more freedom of thought (not that we can measure animal thoughts), but it still comes down to survival. We (like most other animals) are encoded to have a will to survive-reproduction (though we have turned this into a recreational event), fight or flight, etc.
), fight or flight, etc.I dunno about mothers feeding their babies being instinct. If that were the case then why do so many mothers neglect their babies both by not feeding them and by doing drugs, etc? Its a complex issue.
On a side note, it is accepted in the Neurology community that Brain Size equals how intelligent a species is. Well guess who is number 2? We are. Guess who is number 1? Bottlenose Dolphin. Their brain is about 20% larger than ours.
On a side note, it is accepted in the Neurology community that Brain Size equals how intelligent a species is. Well guess who is number 2? We are. Guess who is number 1? Bottlenose Dolphin. Their brain is about 20% larger than ours.
Fanof49ASU
Premium Member
Just curious.....you've added some interesting trivia lately.....are you a neurologist/physician?
crumbletop
New member
Co-related in a general sense, perhaps, but equals -- no way. I also doubt Neruologists would have much to say about this. Neuroscience is where I would expect some sort of mechanistic musing on the topic. Equals is the wrong word, though, as it implies a causal relationship. Something I have read with which I agree -- "Art is the signature of Man."
greystreet41
In Memoriam
Bottlenose Dolphins (Tursiops truncatus) have an absolute brain mass of 1500-1700 grams. This is slightly greater than that of humans (1300-1400 grams).
The brain to body mass ratio in dolphins is less than half that of humans: 0.9% versus 2.1%. . This comparison appears more favourable if we leave aside the large amount of blubber (15-20% of mass) dolphins require for insulation. Humans and dolphins rate first and second, respectively, for animal brain-to-body ratio, amongst all known animals weighing over one kilogram; however, by this measure, mice are equal to humans and above dolphins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_brain#Brain_size
DMBillies
Active member
This is the issue with looking at brain size (even if compared with body size) as a marker of how intelligent a species is:
Brains use up a lot of resources and, therefore, getting bigger ones is only evolutionarily advantageous to the extent that you are able to feed it. As humans became better able to feed their brains (especially with proteins), the fossil record seems to indicate an evolutionary jump in brain size. This is a "chicken or the egg" story, but the fact remains that bigger brains require more resources.
Second, bigger brains have all sorts of effects on the ability of a mother to provide for a fetus and, perhaps more importantly, give birth to it. One of the reasons it takes humans so long to bring all of their abilities on-line (walking for instance), is because a lot of our brain and body development occurs after birth. Allowing more development to occur in utero would result in an evolutionarily disadvantage for the mother. However, early birth also has the disadvantage of requiring long-term care of an infant. It's an investment to have a child and a lot of human behavior is centered around raising our next generation and cashing in on that investment (current examples include school, marriage, car seats, immunizations, etc.).
Third, the bigger you make a brain, the more connections you need to make and the longer those connections need to be. It seems that the architecture of the brain is actually limited in the size that it can efficiently be (i.e., bigger does not mean smarter because bigger comes with limitations...you probably could build a bridge to England, but it wouldn't be cost effective and it would be much faster to just fly). White matter is responsible for most of the processing that occurs in a brain. Humans have a lot of it. In order to allow the shortest connections to other parts of the brain and to maximize effiency, you need to increase the surface area of the brain (where the white matter is) without increasing volume in the same proportion. This is why our brains have a lot of folds. If you look at a mouse brain, it's very smooth.
Finally, different animals have different specializations. The auditory processing area for bats, for instance, is huge in comparison to other animals. These differences in relative size of the areas of the brain make it next to impossible to compare across species (especially accounting for relative body size). Humans have disproportionately large frontal lobes, even when compared with other apes. Our frontal lobes are where most of our higher order processes occur. One of the reasons your two-year-old does whatever they want (terrible twos) is because the frontal lobes are the last part of the brain to fully develop (aren't you glad that mystery is solved... can't help you with what to do about it).
That's just my input... but does brain size really have anything to do with treating animals ethically?
Brains use up a lot of resources and, therefore, getting bigger ones is only evolutionarily advantageous to the extent that you are able to feed it. As humans became better able to feed their brains (especially with proteins), the fossil record seems to indicate an evolutionary jump in brain size. This is a "chicken or the egg" story, but the fact remains that bigger brains require more resources.
Second, bigger brains have all sorts of effects on the ability of a mother to provide for a fetus and, perhaps more importantly, give birth to it. One of the reasons it takes humans so long to bring all of their abilities on-line (walking for instance), is because a lot of our brain and body development occurs after birth. Allowing more development to occur in utero would result in an evolutionarily disadvantage for the mother. However, early birth also has the disadvantage of requiring long-term care of an infant. It's an investment to have a child and a lot of human behavior is centered around raising our next generation and cashing in on that investment (current examples include school, marriage, car seats, immunizations, etc.).
Third, the bigger you make a brain, the more connections you need to make and the longer those connections need to be. It seems that the architecture of the brain is actually limited in the size that it can efficiently be (i.e., bigger does not mean smarter because bigger comes with limitations...you probably could build a bridge to England, but it wouldn't be cost effective and it would be much faster to just fly). White matter is responsible for most of the processing that occurs in a brain. Humans have a lot of it. In order to allow the shortest connections to other parts of the brain and to maximize effiency, you need to increase the surface area of the brain (where the white matter is) without increasing volume in the same proportion. This is why our brains have a lot of folds. If you look at a mouse brain, it's very smooth.
Finally, different animals have different specializations. The auditory processing area for bats, for instance, is huge in comparison to other animals. These differences in relative size of the areas of the brain make it next to impossible to compare across species (especially accounting for relative body size). Humans have disproportionately large frontal lobes, even when compared with other apes. Our frontal lobes are where most of our higher order processes occur. One of the reasons your two-year-old does whatever they want (terrible twos) is because the frontal lobes are the last part of the brain to fully develop (aren't you glad that mystery is solved... can't help you with what to do about it
).That's just my input... but does brain size really have anything to do with treating animals ethically?
DMBillies
Active member
Sorry... I'm a cognitive/developmental psychologist. Although it's not neuroscience, I have had a number of classes about cognition, the brain, and how it develops. I recently had a class on brain physiology that tackled a lot of the issues that came popping up in this thread.
I really wanted to stop myself... but I couldn't
I really wanted to stop myself... but I couldn't
KAiNE
Premium Member
Since we are on to brain size and dolphins....
1) I am warning you... this is absolutly one of the most horrible videos I have ever seen.
2) I couldnt get through the whole thing.. I had to close it.
http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin
1) I am warning you... this is absolutly one of the most horrible videos I have ever seen.
2) I couldnt get through the whole thing.. I had to close it.
http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/default.asp?Display=31
Good link about brain size as it relates to intelligence. It should be noted that it is thought that a large portion of the dolphins brain is white matter ( wiring ) and scientists think that is to allow for advanced echo location.
Good link about brain size as it relates to intelligence. It should be noted that it is thought that a large portion of the dolphins brain is white matter ( wiring ) and scientists think that is to allow for advanced echo location.
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